Joint Venture Partnership

Re: Joint Venture Partnership

John Sheridan — Wed, 11 Jan 2012 12:14:05 GMT

I'm pretty sure that the 17% 'net profit' quoted by Dodds represents 'profit before owners remuneration' which is why the real level of profit after all costs in too many practices is way below 10% - a figure which seems to be similar to the median figure for practices in the US and Australia. Perhaps that is why the Executive Board of the American Veterinary Medical Association has approved a package of proposals totaling more than $5 million to 'aid a profession plagued by low numbers of client visits, skyrocketing veterinary student loan debt, and questions over whether the supply of veterinarians is outpacing demand for veterinary services' - see article in the Nov 2011 issue of the News and Views from Veterinary Business Briefing - Maybe the BVA/SPVS and VPMA should be taking the issue of poor practice profits just as seriously here in the UK

John S

Re: Joint Venture Partnership

Eamon McAllister — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 18:07:11 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

And here's me priding myself that I've kept my figure, and can still get into a sheepskin coat bought 30 years ago-may have to if the forecasters are right

Wynne

[/quote]

Forecasters say "Welshmen to suffer loss of libido this winter"

Re: Joint Venture Partnership

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 17:50:02 GMT

And the senior partner is a veterinary surgeon who has done (usually ) his share of hard work in the past-not an outsider skimming off veterinary profits

Wynne

Re: Joint Venture Partnership

Mark Holmes — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 17:34:11 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"]

If you accept there are quite a few large practices out there with a senior partner taking a salary but not consulting much anymore (ie not fee generating), probably not much difference in overhead costs but the monkey on your back never goes away (or dies)!!

[/quote]

Yes but they are large established practices, with property bought and paid for (often) not hanging around the legs of a new single man practice whilst its trying to keep its head above the water.

Re: Joint Venture Partnership

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 16:54:21 GMT

And here's me priding myself that I've kept my figure, and can still get into a sheepskin coat bought 30 years ago-may have to if the forecasters are right

Wynne

Re: Joint Venture Partnership

Mark Rowland — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 15:46:14 GMT

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]

Whats with the big lips HWR?

(Jesus, glad I checked that before sending, narrowly avoided a very embarassing typo).

[/quote]

Ha Ha Ha just spat my coffee out

Re: Joint Venture Partnership

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 15:22:54 GMT

Gerry I've criticised Chris a few times, so I thought I'd kiss and make up

Wynne

Re: Joint Venture Partnership

Bob Russell — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 11:21:50 GMT

Never, ever trust anyone that comes at you with a hundred page contract. A good, well written and fair contract should only need to be a fraction of that!

Re: Joint Venture Partnership

Gerry Henry — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 11:17:10 GMT

Whats with the big lips HWR?

(Jesus, glad I checked that before sending, narrowly avoided a very embarassing typo).

Re: Joint Venture Partnership

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 09:27:58 GMT

This time I totally agree with Chris

Wynne

Re: Joint Venture Partnership

Shams Mir — Sat, 03 Dec 2011 22:43:56 GMT

I have had an opportunity to go through a JVP contract stretching over a 100 pages: the most daunting document I have ever read!

It is unlikely that vets in existing joint venture partnerships are going to be able to openly respond to this thread with any adverse comments, not to speak of those who may have left such partnerships as they are often legally gagged to utter a word about their story!

We have received some information from vets "trapped" in joint venture partnerships, but the BVU is keen to fully investigate the difficulties experienced by vets and nurses in much advertised joint partnership arrangements.

We would be grateful to any existing as well as ex JVP vets and nurses who may wish to share their experiences with us by emailing me IN CONFIDENCE on vets4bvu@hotmail.co.uk

The BVU is keen to develope some guidelines to help vets and nurses wishing to go into JVP arrangements make informed decisions.

Shams

Professional Advisory Committee, BVU

Re: Joint Venture Partnership

Judith Joyce — Sat, 03 Dec 2011 22:43:48 GMT

Similar topic some months ago and my view remains the same.

If you are a good vet and this is a good location then the practice (your very own practice) will fly so why would you want to pimp 20% of it off to someone else? If you are not up to the job or the location is wrong then it will crash and burn despite the flash and bluster of your "partner" and what's more, while any financial success will be shared, any financial failure will be yours alone.

There is loads of good, free advice available for aspiring new practice owners - start by contacting some of the people on this thread (even the grumpy old buggers) and consider joining SPVS and asking there. Certainly don't do anything without following Chris B's advice to enlist the advice of a good accountant and a good lawyer to look over the proposition - "good" in this context usually means relatively expensive but it will be the best money you spend. Again, some contributors to this thread will be able to give you some names.

Malcolm N

Re: Joint Venture Partnership

Rachael Winder — Sat, 03 Dec 2011 18:07:39 GMT

They do like to tell you that they get the best deals possible wrt their equipment etc, but half an hour on the internet will soon disprove this. Do it on your own- you'll work just as hard but get a much better deal. And you have total control, so it's stressful but good stressful

Re: Joint Venture Partnership

Richard Carter — Sat, 03 Dec 2011 12:39:33 GMT

Plus side - very good marketing support, professionals sorting out lease, employment issues, all the office side stuff sorted, full vet practice up and ready to go with very high standard of presentation etc

negative side - it appears the JVP is solely responsible for any loans taken out to set up the practice (and these can > £200k), you will work very hard and very long to get the practice to the point where you are drawing dividends or able to support an assistant, and the franchise has a say in how you want to do things - eg what marketing you will spend your money on, what you will sell...

Re: Joint Venture Partnership

Amanda Nicholls — Thu, 01 Dec 2011 18:19:09 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]I am posting under Anon, as I don't want my current boss to catch wind of this! I am looking at JVPs with the main providers. What are people's experiences of these? I'm most interested in people who have actually gone through with it or at least met with the companies involved. I guess my main queries are whether you actually do feel in control of the clinical side, or things do get imposed on you, have you been able to add clauses in the contracts to help protect yourself. And also has anyone sold their share? Does anyone feel trapped in their situation? Any advice good or bad gladly accepted! Thanks.

[/quote]

Have you considered setting up yourself? I have not found it too difficult and as long as you are prepared to work hard, it is a lot of fun. I would be happy to give you any advice (especially what not to do).

Re: Joint Venture Partnership

Rachael Winder — Thu, 01 Dec 2011 18:02:04 GMT

Take it all with a very big pinch of salt and make very sure you understand how to get out. It will work for many people and is a very good option for those people but for those who it doesn't it can be exceedingly difficult to leave- and you won't get told about those JVPs...

Re: Joint Venture Partnership

Rob Davis — Thu, 01 Dec 2011 16:52:03 GMT

I had several meetings with Vets4pets around 6 years ago as I was very interested at the time in the JVP model. It was 2-3 meetings before they gave me sight of the contract. This was a pile of printed A4 which was around 2cm thick.... I did read it all and it was very much geared towards protecting V4P and there appeared to be very little protection for the partner. I looked around several of their practices and chatted to the vets involved, and to be fair, they all seemed to be happy with their lot, although given that I was with one of the "bosses" they were unlikely to say anything else. I decided that it was not for me and have not regretted the decision at all.

I suspect it can work for some people, but it was not for me. It is also possible that much has changed in the intervening period, although they certainly haven't opened anywhere near the number of practices that they were aiming for.

Re: Joint Venture Partnership

Simon Neuhoff — Thu, 01 Dec 2011 16:01:41 GMT

[quote user="Chris Barker"]

I have to say that I hope that anyone thinking about entering into a JVP will seek out both legal AND financial advice. My understanding is that your prospective partner will expect 12-13% of turnover (NB. turnover NOT profit) as recompense for them providing bulk-buying power and for administration (payroll/paye) etc, while you will (certainly in those arrangement involving stand alone units) have sole responsibility for the lease. And will only be able to quit the arrangement IF you can find someone else to buy your share.

12% of turnover is a considerable sum - indeed the net profit for many practices has dropped well below 20% in recent years (17% according to one specialist acountant http://www.doddaccountants.co.uk/pressOffice/downloads/vets/VetsNewsletter_May11_WEB.pdf) which to my way of thinking does not leave much for you to live on. Or from which to pay off the loan taken at the outset and off which you will be living until the clinic turns in a profit.

But like the elephant in the room - noone is talking about hese issues. The disillusioned JVP Partner dare not speak out, or else there will be noone to whom their share can be sold. Indeed those that do speak out are those who have exited the JVP successfully. I've no doubt that the setup could work but only with massive input in terms of time by the principal. And massive profit to those extracting 12% annually ad infinitum. Tales of a client-empty new setup on the Glasgow fringe, despite a series of three discount offers, reach our ears by way of drug reps who have no particular axe to grind.

I can understand the frustration of young vets who hare not been able to fall into a traditional partnership who see a quick way to thier becoming 'independent'. But in reality these new ventures are wholly devisive for the profession, and can only thrive by enticing clients away from existing practices. That's business I hear you say. But the consumer cake can only be split so many ways before practices lose financial viability. And in a failing JVP one cannot just simply walk away...

Chris B

[/quote]

Chris whilst I agree with much of what you've said (and would add more re less clinical and management freedon etc) I think in fairness ANY new practice these days can only thrive by enticing clients from existing practices and slicing the cake further and further. To my mind there is no doubt that the increasing pressure on practices is going to lead to some casualties.

Re: Joint Venture Partnership

Chris Barker — Thu, 01 Dec 2011 15:24:15 GMT

Chris B