Is trimming a rabbits teeth an Act of Veterinary Surgery?

Re: Is trimming a rabbits teeth an Act of Veterinary Surgery?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 01 Dec 2011 01:59:24 GMT

Poker ???!!!?

Or, could it be............ maybe you are referring to Bradley Viner?

Re: Is trimming a rabbits teeth an Act of Veterinary Surgery?

Marie Kubiak — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 20:57:07 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

Point taken, I'll be getting all my recidivist bunny dentals if for extractions asap, I already have the special curved periodontal membrane tool.

[/quote]

I vote for the high tech 'pink needle' over the annoying curved special incisor poker every time, saves time and irritation every time! :)

Re: Is trimming a rabbits teeth an Act of Veterinary Surgery?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 14:59:15 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]only remove them if they are painful [/quote]

how are you assessing this?

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]or chronically infected[/quote]

I find the success rate for treatment at this stage is much worse......osteomyelitis in bunnies is something I avoid if at all possible.

[/quote]

Point taken, I'll be getting all my recidivist bunny dentals if for extractions asap, I already have the special curved periodontal membrane tool.

Re: Is trimming a rabbits teeth an Act of Veterinary Surgery?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 29 Nov 2011 13:45:13 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]only remove them if they are painful [/quote]

how are you assessing this?

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]or chronically infected[/quote]

I find the success rate for treatment at this stage is much worse......osteomyelitis in bunnies is something I avoid if at all possible.

Re: Is trimming a rabbits teeth an Act of Veterinary Surgery?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 29 Nov 2011 13:42:23 GMT

Evelyn has covered most of what I would have said, but I'd also ask my own question as a reply:

When you cut the incisors, how low do you go? Ideally you should return them to normal length but then you'll have to have bunny back within a fortnight, as Evelyn said. Or do you cut them right back to give it more time till the next cut, in which case you leave the same function as extraction, surely? Except you then have the trauma of repeated visits and the likelihood of more molar issues when the incisors are too long again for a couple of weeks until they get cut next.....

I find that molars issues are massively decreased if you get rid of the incisors and improve the diet. Especially in young bunnies with 'primary' malocclusion.

Re: Is trimming a rabbits teeth an Act of Veterinary Surgery?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 29 Nov 2011 11:47:38 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

s this a good idea? I think the teeth should be retained as long as possible so they can prehend their food, eat their faecal pellets and groom properly and only remove them if they are painful or chronically infected. Plus as has been suggested there is often a problem with the cheek teeth as well so incisor trimming time is an opportunity to check those. If making more money is the result that is a bunus (sic) (that was a typo but I thought it was good pun).

[/quote]

Incisor extraction has to be better than fortnightly incisor cutting.

They can still prehend their food and eat their caecotrophs. Grooming doesn't seem a problem either though the owner may need to do a little bit.

Of course the cheek teeth will need regular re-examination because their malocclusion will usually have been the true problem. so you make appointments at suitable intervals and re-examine.

Re: Is trimming a rabbits teeth an Act of Veterinary Surgery?

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 29 Nov 2011 10:46:40 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

Once I get to 2 or 3 trims I am strongly recommending removal anyway...!!! Maybe I should stop 'curing' them - I'd make more money carrying on trimming...

[/quote] Is this a good idea? I think the teeth should be retained as long as possible so they can prehend their food, eat their faecal pellets and groom properly and only remove them if they are painful or chronically infected. Plus as has been suggested there is often a problem with the cheek teeth as well so incisor trimming time is an opportunity to check those. If making more money is the result that is a bunus (sic) (that was a typo but I thought it was good pun).

Re: Is trimming a rabbits teeth an Act of Veterinary Surgery?

Cat Henstridge — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 22:45:24 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Cat Henstridge"]A local rabbit charity, who are very good[/quote]

[quote user="Cat Henstridge"]to try and raise £1000 to buy a dental machine so they can trim the teeth of their rescues without having to take them to the surgery.[/quote]

a contradiction, surely?

[/quote]

I can understand why you would think that but this is the first time they have done anything like this and otherwise they really are brilliant. I think I shall get in touch and gently explain why this may not be such a good plan. As I said, I am no longer working where they bring their rabbits but I do write regular articles for them and we keep in touch, so they might listen to me.

Cat

Re: Is trimming a rabbits teeth an Act of Veterinary Surgery?

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 19:52:13 GMT

[quote user="Cat Henstridge"]A local rabbit charity, who are very good[/quote]

[quote user="Cat Henstridge"]to try and raise £1000 to buy a dental machine so they can trim the teeth of their rescues without having to take them to the surgery.[/quote]

a contradiction, surely?

If their current VS is simply trimming incisors when a rabbit is presented with malocclusion, I can see why they may feel buying their own drill is sufficient. My own clients are left in no doubt as to the severity of the problem......and that they could not possibly deal with it themselves!

Incidentally - how often do people trim these teeth? Once I get to 2 or 3 trims I am strongly recommending removal anyway...!!! Maybe I should stop 'curing' them - I'd make more money carrying on trimming...

Re: Is trimming a rabbits teeth an Act of Veterinary Surgery?

Mark Rowland — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 15:58:56 GMT

That's fine then :-) I assume then that the op can advise that the charities proposed actions are illegal Thank-you for correcting me.

Re: Is trimming a rabbits teeth an Act of Veterinary Surgery?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 15:52:29 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]Sadly these guys may have a precedent in equine dentistry.[/quote]

Nope.

Please don't make me go through it all over again!

Re: Is trimming a rabbits teeth an Act of Veterinary Surgery?

Mark Rowland — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 15:43:33 GMT

Sadly these guys may have a precedent in equine dentistry. Believe me I don't like it one bit. Next the rodentologists will get wind. We will be" only against it so we can keep the monopoly" I doubt the RCVS will want to get involved. Whatever next. A BSAVA manual recommending conscious rabbit dentals? Let's wait and see. Oh dear

Re: Is trimming a rabbits teeth an Act of Veterinary Surgery?

Julian Earl — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 15:26:28 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]

I think farmers are allowed to cut their piglets' teeth, so I would think that that is accepted to be done by non-vets. Using clippers or a burr wouldn't seem to make much difference to me. But I agree with Hannah that it is for the RCVS to decide probably.

Mariette

[/quote]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

The short answer to the original question is: yes.

...Furthermore: there is no analogy at all between claw trimming and tooth cutting. The claw is made of keratin and it is not a sensitive tissue, and claw overgrowth does not represent any sort of disease.

[/quote]

Cutting pigs' teeth is permitted in the first seven days of life as a specific exemption under the Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1968 and the Welfare of Livestock Regulations 1994 made under that Act. So Evelyn is correct legally as well as physiologically.

Re: Is trimming a rabbits teeth an Act of Veterinary Surgery?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 14:39:18 GMT

The short answer to the original question is: yes.

The border guide, if one is needed, is interference with sensitive tissues. Dentine is a sensitive tissue.

Moreover:

Do their rescues really need so much incisor trimming? I am quite often asked to "trim" teeth which are perfectly normal. Who is to decide that an individual's teeth need trimming?

Furthermore, the reason why the incisors are overgrown needs investigating. Apart from the cases where an overgrowth clearly arises from trauma to and fracture of the opposing tooth, the vast majority of incisor overgrowths arise from cheek tooth malocclusion and overgrowth, which must be investigated and dealt with. I trust the charity is not proposing to do its own amateur anaesthesia, oral examination, radiography, cheek tooth adjustment and extractions?

£1000 would pay for an awful lot of proper and competent professional examination and treatment at charity rates.

I think their idea is both mad and bad and they should be firmly dissuaded.

Furthermore: there is no analogy at all between claw trimming and tooth cutting. The claw is made of keratin and it is not a sensitive tissue, and claw overgrowth does not represent any sort of disease.

Furthermore: to "cut" the incisor teeth with clippers is appalling. It is not cutting, it is smashing through the tooth substance with the hope that the fracture lines will not be too complex and will be in roughly the right direction and the right position. Too often this hope is in vain.

Re: Is trimming a rabbits teeth an Act of Veterinary Surgery?

mariette asselbergs — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 13:57:39 GMT

Mariette

Re: Is trimming a rabbits teeth an Act of Veterinary Surgery?

jamie winstone — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 13:51:01 GMT

In my opinion , no, Cutting claws is a similae act and is clearly accepted. Cutting teeth badiy is simply unacceptable but once it is accepted that someone can perform the task well there shouldn`t be an issue.

Jamie

Re: Is trimming a rabbits teeth an Act of Veterinary Surgery?

Cat Henstridge — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 13:07:54 GMT

[quote user="Marie Kubiak"]

I got that email and was a little surprised! If they use it to bypass a vet exam then I suspect they'll miss a lot of problems being picked up.

If they can and do go ahead then a dremel with a diamond cutting disc may be a much lower priced option but the ethics/legality are decidedly murky.

Marie

[/quote]

Hi Marie,

I think so too but I can understand their concerns about costs (although £1000 would cover a lot of trimming or indeed removals!). I don't work at a practice that does their work any more so I don't want to get too involved but I thought if it was definitely illegal then they should know!

Cat

Re: Is trimming a rabbits teeth an Act of Veterinary Surgery?

Marie Kubiak — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 13:00:34 GMT

I got that email and was a little surprised! If they use it to bypass a vet exam then I suspect they'll miss a lot of problems being picked up.

If they can and do go ahead then a dremel with a diamond cutting disc may be a much lower priced option but the ethics/legality are decidedly murky.

Marie

Re: Is trimming a rabbits teeth an Act of Veterinary Surgery?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 11:20:19 GMT

Ask Royal College to clarify

Wynne

Re: Is trimming a rabbits teeth an Act of Veterinary Surgery?

Bob Russell — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 10:07:47 GMT

By the time rabbits get to us with incisor problems they are quite likely to have molar problems as well. I would consider it is an act of surgery and there has to be a degree of 'diagnosis' of a problem.

Re: Is trimming a rabbits teeth an Act of Veterinary Surgery?

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 09:34:03 GMT

I wouldn't trim rabbits' incisors without a burr or diamond disc because of the danger of splintering them with clippers so some knowledge of anatomy is required which I would say qualifies it as an act of veterinary surgery. On that basis the cost becomes irrelevant but you can get a micromotor for <£500 from Vet Direct and I would have thought there is something available second-hand.