What to put in your RCVS manifesto/how to get in

Re: What to put in your RCVS manifesto/how to get in

J G Wray — Thu, 17 Nov 2011 14:00:35 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]The silence from the RCVS councilors has been deafening! [/quote]

They're gagged, by order. The irony is that the force of the order lies within the rules that govern Council members behaviour, the old "little black book". Didn't stop some of them making allegations about BobP, so there's a certain selectivity about all this.

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

We need to see the report, it is ours because we have paid for it!

I like the idea of a freedom of information request!

[/quote]

Ummm, I'm not sure we do need to see the report. My view is that we will be best served by taking McKelvey's findings and moving on to find how best to help RCVS out this pile of self-sown manure - for a price.

If we know the content then either we will have a more or less generous interpretation compared with McKelvey. Either way McKelvey could come in for criticism and that looks a bit unfair. I din't used to think this way, because when he started off he behaved like the Reg's poodle. That's changed ergo, I'm agin McKelvey getting it in the neck. He may needed to come back and review progress at some point in the future.

The other problem is that "names" may come out, individuals' culpability may be identified. I'd like to see these "names" come out spontaneously and take some responsibility without the threat of revelation. I'd like them to control the process of apology and contrition and commitment to do better, to demonstrate that they are vertebrates. I'd like them to explain how their election manifestoes reflect their subsequent behaviour - this would be a neat thing, 'cos I've rarely seen a justification for hypocrisy.

As for the FoI application, if you look on the RCVS website it shows what's excluded from release under their commitment to the FoI. Sooooo, this may be a tad frustrating. The RCVS might also indulge in some brinkmanship here, suggesting that you take it to the Information Commissioner to adjudicate. This wouldn't be the first time.

JGW

Re: What to put in your RCVS manifesto/how to get in

Bob Russell — Thu, 17 Nov 2011 12:35:37 GMT

The silence from the RCVS councilors has been deafening! We need to see the report, it is ours because we have paid for it!

I like the idea of a freedom of information request! I wonder if the report has slipped behind a desk somewhere and will be unavailable!

Re: What to put in your RCVS manifesto/how to get in

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 17 Nov 2011 10:41:01 GMT

[quote user="Judith Joyce"]It would have been better still if any vets (other than a largely self-selected elite) were able to see the report itself.[/quote]

I've submitted a Freedom of Information request.

Re: What to put in your RCVS manifesto/how to get in

Judith Joyce — Thu, 17 Nov 2011 09:22:42 GMT

[quote user="Tim Mainland"] if as many vets as possible read the conclusions of the McKelvey report [/quote]

It would have been better still if any vets (other than a largely self-selected elite) were able to see the report itself.

In spite of the fact that the report is written in the passive voice, real people made real errors of judgement. Furthermore, these errors were missed, tolerated or ignored by a series of RCVS presidents and that too is a specific failing. Regrettably, we are denied knowledge of who the culprits are and this is important not because they should be vilified but because we need to be assured that they are removed from any risk of future wrong-doing and also that lessons are genuinely seen to have been learned.

Unfortunately, the College is a multi-layered morass of petty politics, self-interest, pomposity and poor governance. That is not to say that everyone involved is inept or wrong-headed - far from it; but if things are going to change for the better we can expect a period of murky politics as invalid power-bases are destroyed. The early departure of the Registrar may, or may not be part of this murky politicking but I will not be alone in recognising the opportunity offered by this change. JGW expressed his hope that the College has reached its nadir - I share that hope and see in the registrar's departure possible evidence that change is being driven. Hopefully, the start of substantial change and significantly improved governance. The biggest risk by far at the moment comes from those conservatives on council who have tolerated all this disgracefully poor governance - those who have chosen not to "rock the boat" when recognising that the boat was unsound and rocking it was their duty.

Rather than promote a vetsurgeon.org council candidate, I think that we would be better occupied by standing toe-to-toe, nose-to-nose with existing council members and asking them to explain how this failure of governance happened "on their watch" and what they have done during their term of office to expose the failings and drive the essential change. If they can't explain, or worse still if they plead ignorance, then their ineptitude can be advertised on vetsurgeon.org and they should be encouraged to give up their place on council.

Malcolm N

Re: What to put in your RCVS manifesto/how to get in

Tim Mainland — Wed, 16 Nov 2011 17:22:37 GMT

As a suggestion developed from "elsewhere" it would be helpful if as many vets as possible read the conclusions of the McKelvey report recently issued by RCVS. This report investigated the overspend of our funds on the IT project and basement redevelopment at Belgarvia House, and the related mismanagement within our governing body. Too few vets are aware of this. The link is at the end of this paragraph so please feel free to send it to all the vets in your practice. It's on the RCVS website.

http://www.rcvs.org.uk/document-library/recommendations-from-mckelvey-report/

Re: What to put in your RCVS manifesto/how to get in

Tim Mainland — Wed, 16 Nov 2011 17:17:05 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

Tim,

[quote user="Tim Mainland"]This isn't a presidential election. [/quote]

Laughed. Yes, I realise that.

[quote user="Tim Mainland"]One candidate, however well supported, will find him or herself "****ing in the wind" within council. [/quote]

I suppose my thinking was that a) a VS supported candidate wouldn't be the only good candidate on council, so this would be doing something to reinforce the troops so to speak, and that b) one of the main benefits of a VS candidate should be that they are akin to Mr Stephenson. i.e whether or not they are able to effect change, they ARE able to explain what's going on, which from my outsider's point of view would be a change for the better.

But I'm just here to throw in (sometimes rubbish) ideas and facilitate where I can. I defer to your greater wisdom I need you (by which I mean everyone) to tell me if there is anything I can do to help.

[/quote]

Arlo,

Thanks. It's in no way a rubbish idea - and I feel you are very supportive in this whole situation. I guess I'd like to see the discussion( going on both here and in other places) achieve a lot more while "the iron is hot". Whether an eventual VS candidate becomes a part of this, only time will tell.

Re: What to put in your RCVS manifesto/how to get in

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 16 Nov 2011 17:01:47 GMT

Tim,

[quote user="Tim Mainland"]This isn't a presidential election. [/quote]

Laughed. Yes, I realise that.

[quote user="Tim Mainland"]One candidate, however well supported, will find him or herself "****ing in the wind" within council. [/quote]

Re: What to put in your RCVS manifesto/how to get in

Tim Mainland — Wed, 16 Nov 2011 12:17:37 GMT

Arlo,

This isn't a presidential election. One candidate, however well supported, will find him or herself "****ing in the wind" within council.

I'm sure we are all looking for a more accountable, responsible, effective council. To that end, and if we are going to get the silent masses to vote, we have to keep it simple and work from what we have at present.

My suggestion is that we need to know more about the PVSG. Bertie Ellis describes the Practising Veterinary Surgeons Group within RCVS council as a loose federation. Who is in it? What does it stand for? Does it have a manifesto? What is its structure? It looks to me like a potential starting point to promote and elect a group of councillors for the future.

Re: What to put in your RCVS manifesto/how to get in

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 16 Nov 2011 12:06:11 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]I hope Mr G gives vetsurgon.org members a bit more flexibility this year to challenge those seeking election, because to me those who have been found wanting got in on goodwill and experience tickets, and have delivered a bitter taste and there's something hypocritical about that.[/quote]

I can't remember restricting it last year.

However, as regards this year, there will not be a formal RCVS elections forum/section as we had last year.

Also, nobody has yet put themselves forward as the 'VetSurgeon candidate' - I doubt anyone will!

That being the case, I'm thinking the best thing will be to invite all the candidates to come and canvas in the main forums. We hold a primary vote in the New Year, and the winner will then be promoted to the members of VetSurgeon.org as the candidate of choice.

Re: What to put in your RCVS manifesto/how to get in

J G Wray — Wed, 16 Nov 2011 11:44:57 GMT

There is a view doing the rounds and it is particularly pertinent for the next round of RCVS elections bearing in mind who will be standing again, that there should be no time limit on those elected to Council only those appointed.

There is a piece about democracy here, being free to stand again etc.

HOwever, the recent MCKelvey findings point a finger at the confusion and poor oversight of the Planning & Resources Committee which is thick with long term "experienced" Councillors. The PRC failing, the RCVS failing, the eye-watering cost is down to the PRC people. There is also the weirdness surrounding the anonymous ( spit) allegations emanating from PRC ref BobP.

The departure of the Registrar leaves a vacuum, which I believe is largely sentimental, but is being used to reinforce the appropriateness of unlimited terms for elected COuncillors. There is a feeling that steady and experienced hands are required. Ahem, these are the ones identified by McKelvey as wanting.

Sooooo, there's a bit of a conundrum coming. Dr Ellis is up again. He's on PRC, but history and his previous tells us that he is highly unlikely to have been associated with shenanigans or lack of oversight at PRC. Furthermore he has experience of regulation of another profession, which gives RCVS another dimension.

Mr Stephenson is also up again. He has single handedly shed more light on Council proceedings than any other including BobP. He ain't on the PRC.

I am comfortable with these two

As for the general principle of the democratic element here, I'm not so sure. Those on the PRC developed a manifesto for their election. They got elected. Did anyone notice a commitment to lack of oversight or anonymous back stabbing in these? The title of this thread is about what you need to get elected. I hope Mr G gives vetsurgon.org members a bit more flexibility this year to challenge those seeking election, because to me those who have been found wanting got in on goodwill and experience tickets, and have delivered a bitter taste and there's something hypocritical about that.

JGW

Re: What to put in your RCVS manifesto/how to get in

Tim Mainland — Mon, 14 Nov 2011 16:51:02 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

but a deal in which RCVS demonstrates sensitivity, good management, openness and responsiveness. In other words it breaks down its [R]emote, [C]ovetous, [V]exatious and [S]upercilious attitudes and behaviour.

I would like to see Nov 2011 as a nadir, not as a point on a futher downward spiral of confidence in our College. In order to get this the profession should, through institutions like BVA and co-operative social sites like this give them a lead on what they should be doing.

Too many words, too much sermonising, ah well. I hope one and all can now recognise who put RCVS in this mess and ask yourself whether those coming on are competent to see through change or whether they are just ambitious, plausible windbags, who have solicited your vote and delivered this fine mess.

JGW.

[/quote]

You said it yourself JGW - too many words. The issue is big, real, important, crucial. But just 16% of the profession vote at RCVS elections. One memeber has used the word "drivel" and it probably typifies a greater viewpoint of the RCVS by the masses, and why few engage. Do we want more to engage - or would they just vote for "names" and thus support the status quo? Can the RCVS be left to put their own house in order? - I somewhat doubt it, though Mr Partridge will know better than me. But if we are to engage the majority of the electorate in an interest in their own future governance, then the words must be fewer, and the message clearer. But what exactly is it?

Re: What to put in your RCVS manifesto/how to get in

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 14 Nov 2011 15:33:51 GMT

Chris and Jonathan I'd missed the news about Bob Partridge, and agree with you that those whomade disparaging remarks should apologise

Wynne

Re: What to put in your RCVS manifesto/how to get in

Bob Russell — Mon, 14 Nov 2011 11:24:27 GMT

I have always felt a sense of added security knowing that Bob Partridge is a councilor because he is a thorn in the sides of the self-satisfied, mutually supportive RCVS council. I am not surprised that he has rattled a number of cages (has done for a number of years) and there have been swipes at him for a number of years by other members of the council.

I am not surprised the Registrar has left her post! There should be other resignations as well.

Re: What to put in your RCVS manifesto/how to get in

Bob Russell — Mon, 14 Nov 2011 11:00:09 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]'boring drivel'[/quote]

"boring drivel because" is fine though surely??

[/quote]

Just to clarify things! I was not the one that called it boring drivel despite the quote above! I am as just as infuriated by what seems to be going on at the RCVS as many others are. Any attempt to get changes can only be good IMO.

Not sure how it ended up looking as if I called it boring drivel but I didn't say that and I don't find it boring!

Re: What to put in your RCVS manifesto/how to get in

J G Wray — Sun, 13 Nov 2011 22:35:31 GMT

[quote user="plantagenet"]

[quote user="Tim Mainland"]This is important. Chris B and JGW have highlighted how important it is that the small practice practitioner - who is busy at the coalface and has much else to be bothered with - can trust their RCVS to be acting in their best interest. I do not accept that the remit of the RCVS is simply to protect the public and patient interest. It is our RCVS. We are the M'sRCVS. We pay for it. Nobody else. And we should be able to rely on the RCVS to be there to support us in the performance of our profession.Not just to kill us at every turn.[/quote]

Hear! hear!

Jolly well put.

[/quote]

Ahem without wishing to put a dampener on this heartfelt comment, I think I should point out that thequid pro quo for being a self-regulating profession is that we pay for and maintain the RCVS, which protects the public.

What we do not need to accept is the stewardship of the RCVS as we have had it particularly recently. That is a slightly different proposition. RCVS already [quote user="plantagenet"]support us in the performance of our profession[/quote] by determining how we are educated and how our VNs are educated. They already support us by maintaiing the register. These are the two cornerstones of their function.

However, they have not adapted to their self enhanced roles. Now we have a situtation where the overspends, the Reg going, the McKelvey report and the iniquitous behaviour of some COuncillors has sent the RCVS' reputation into freefall. This is because RCVS in its current guise have a self destructive element, which the very people who are its authors, the "experienced" Councillors are incapable of recognising. Because they are incapable of governing themselves finacially and morally they are jeopardising RCVS.

It's all very well looking for enhanced support for the profession from RCVS, but they cannot manage it unless they get support from the profession as well. There is a deal to be struck here which should be of mutual benefit, not a return to the old days as articulated by the not very sober doyen of veterinary practice Don Haxby when he addressed us as students, to wit

" The RCVS exists to regulate us. If you come up on a disciplinary we will hear all the evidence and having given the complaint due consideration dismiss it.."

JGW.

Re: What to put in your RCVS manifesto/how to get in

plantagenet — Sun, 13 Nov 2011 21:42:09 GMT

Hear! hear!

Jolly well put.

Re: What to put in your RCVS manifesto/how to get in

Tim Mainland — Sat, 12 Nov 2011 17:42:19 GMT

This is important. Chris B and JGW have highlighted how important it is that the small practice practitioner - who is busy at the coalface and has much else to be bothered with - can trust their RCVS to be acting in their best interest. I do not accept that the remit of the RCVS is simply to protect the public and patient interest. It is our RCVS. We are the M'sRCVS. We pay for it. Nobody else. And we should be able to rely on the RCVS to be there to support us in the performance of our profession.Not just to kill us at every turn.

A chartered surveyor friend recently expressed sadness that the RICS seems no longer interested in supporting the small time surveyor, but is regulating in the interests of large surveying practices and corporates. Do we want to see the RCVS go in that direction too? As regulation mounts, so does the cost of meeting it. I fear that the day is not far away when the combination of the RCVS and the banks will make it impossible to raise the finance to meet the regulations involved in the process of an individual MRCVS setting up a new veterinary practice. At the point we will be a totally employed profession in the hands of the big boys. And only they will be able to open a new surgery.

The further problem is that this all flies in the face of world trends. The current financial peril is not going to go away any time soon. And as finances get ever tighter, it is our patients who will be the most vulnerable. If the jobsworths keep racking up the regs, it will just make it harder and harder to deliver veterinary services to needy patients. Frankly the RCVS should be looking to reduce regulation and turn back the clock - it is our responsibility to look after patients under our care. It is for the RCVS to ensure that the playing field encourages us to do that -and to do it in a way that befits the era. There is too much thoughtless and incessant "upwards only" regulation. Sustainability has many meanings, but I'm not seeing any of them being honoured by a system which seeks to impose ever higher standards and costs, when society requires the opposite.

I spoke to an ex practice, but current academic the other day, who suggested that we need a new VSA. I made the point that it would play into the hands of corporate practice and against the interests of her vet students, who may well wish to have broad options regarding getting into practice in their own right. Total surprise!! Not thought of it that way before. Fair enough - I get that, but I'm worried that there is a big push from within unelected University councillors to simply run with the fox on this one. A new VSA - terrifying thought.

Be careful who you vote for next time around. But that is unlikely to be enough.........

Re: What to put in your RCVS manifesto/how to get in

J G Wray — Sat, 12 Nov 2011 16:38:55 GMT

I am deeply saddened by the McKelvey report

The conclusion runs

"..Overall Conclusions
Weaknesses exist in the governance of the RCVS which pose significant risks to the proper conduct of its
business. Executive staff have not been provided with a robust governance framework by the Council,
and this has led to a number of unnecessary misunderstandings between Executive staff and Non
Executive members of Council. These matters should be urgently addressed by Council in order to
ensure that the confidence of ordinary members of the profession in their College can be restored..."

NOw let's be clear. There are those on Council who have been looking to imporve Governance and BobP is a notable case. There are others, but they are recent Councillors.

There are those who have made no commitment to the improvement of governance, in fact have supported maintaining the status quo e.g. Mrs Molyneux.

There are those who have been there for more than a decade who were on the PRC and, even though blessed with "experience" of RCVS, demonstrated no oversight or, at best a feeble attempt at it.

The current members of the PRC are

Planning and Resources Committee

Miss Liz Branscombe (VN Council Chairman)
Mrs Lydia Brown
Dr Jerry Davies (President)
Dr Bertie Ellis
Mrs Lynne Hill (Public Affairs Chairman)
Mr Peter Jinman (Vice-President)
Dr Barry Johnson
Prof Peter Lees (Disciplinary Chairman)
Mrs Jacqui Molyneux (Vice-President)
Dr Robert Moore
Mrs Jill Nute (Preliminary Investigation and RCVS Trust Chairman)
Professor Stuart Reid (Education, Policy and Specialisation Chairman)
Colonel Neil Smith
Mrs Clare Tapsfield-Wright (Advisory Chairman)
Mr Bradley Viner (Chairman)

These are also the people who had a crack at BobP. Let's see how much honour lies within them.

An apology to the profession would be a good start, preferably from each one.

JGW

Re: What to put in your RCVS manifesto/how to get in

J G Wray — Sat, 12 Nov 2011 16:23:29 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

What humiliating climbdown over what malicious and public characterisation of which Councillorf ? That's a genuine question,as I keep quite a close eye on things, and it's something I've missed

Also I agree that on that occasion RCVS bombed but how did the Minister have to humiliate himself ? I don't get the connection

[/quote]

In reverse order

1. The Minister came to EFRACOM having only hours before been informed by his Civil Servants that there was neither the time nor the money for a new VSA. It was eleventh hour stuff. Imagine how it must have felt for a sponsoring Minister to have the rug pulled from under him and then having to face a cross party Parliamentary Committee convened specifically for the purpose.

2. In last Council, the Treasurer, who is also chairman of the PRC and the President apologised for the minuting of an unsubstantiated, wholly inappropriate allegation levelled against Mr Partridge in the PRC meeting before Council. This allegation was made with Mr Partridge absent from the PRC meeting and because the minutes went forward to Council, it became part of the public papers ready for Council. In other words the allegation was recorded and broadcast. The Treasurer and Pres saw the error of this and apologised in front of Council in public session. Mr Partridge accepted their apology and then asked for those who had made the allegation to own up and apologise too. They didn't. They are cowards. This is all in the public domain.

The perpetrators are on the RCVS PRC. The use of this allegation is nothing new. They have done it before and refused to show who they were. Their moral compass is off. They were voted in by MsRCVS, but not in order to make scurrilous accusations. It's just a matter of time before they have to own up.

Can you imagine how the Pres and Treasurer feel having apologised on their behalf and not received support for their action?

I have long maintained that RCVS has a self-destructive bent. This sort of thing, this moral vacuum is the sort of thing that will kill it. It is RCVS who are the problem, not the profession.

JGW

Re: What to put in your RCVS manifesto/how to get in

Chris Barker — Sat, 12 Nov 2011 16:20:45 GMT

My final paragraph got curtailed

Finally. As to the Minister. RCVS went to EFRACom haven been given the impression that DEFRA was ready to provide Parliamentary time to review the VSA. However when the then Head of DEFRA appeared before the Committee, the very first announcement that he had to make was that DEFRA would no longer be supporting the application for Parliamentary time…in effect making the time and money spent on EFRACom a complete waste.

Enough facts for you Wynne? Inconvenient, yes …but who for? Certainly not me

Chris B

Re: What to put in your RCVS manifesto/how to get in

Chris Barker — Sat, 12 Nov 2011 16:18:30 GMT

Let me save JGW some legwork

From the Minutes of the Planning and Resources Committee 13 Oct 2011

44. There was support for the sentiment strongly expressed that the way in which some Council members deal with staff is distasteful and inappropriate, even bullying. Concern was expressed that if nothing is done it might appear that such behaviour is condoned. It was also felt that too much time is being spent looking inwards and that the activities of some are taking up an inordinate and disproportionate amount of Council and staff time to the detriment of expediting ‘normal’ Council business. A comment was made that all members are being forced to change their behaviour by the actions of a minority, an example cited being that members are no longer able to request information directly from College staff as they have been able to do in the past but must now go through the relevant committee chairman.

Though no names are mentioned in the Minutes it is all too clear that this refers to Bob Partridge and his robust attempts to get answers from a resistant regulatory body regarding who exactly bears responsibility for the overspends on IT and the conversion of the basement at the RCVS.

Answers in response to specific questions have been few and far between – rather than do so, and in classic politico style an enquiry was established!

The unjustified criticism of Bob Partridge, minuted and unattributed, was raised at the RCVS Council meeting last week:

Reflections on Council meeting by Richard Stephenson MRCVS web forum

‘Unfortunately some members of the PRC had made uncomplimentary remarks about Mr Partridge and these had been minuted. Not surprisingly as he had not been present at the meeting and able to defend himself he was extremely upset at their inclusion. The Treasurer had already agreed to remove the offending paragraph and the President apologised. Mr Partridge called upon the members concerned to reflect on the code of conduct for members of council and he felt sure that if they did an apology would follow, in this he was mistaken. There followed a brief but awkward silence

So the Treasurer agreed to remove the offensive paragraph from the Minutes. In other words the Minutes are no longer complete nor accurate – these words were said in committee session by someone who is neither man or woman enough either to stand by them and repeat them at RCVS Council or to apologise directly to the injured party.

‘The President apologised’ Hmm. For the fact that the words were spoken in a session where the ‘accused’ could not answer…or simply for the fact that they were published?

I doubt it will every be learned who spoke the words, but this incident does not reflect well on the judgement of the Members of this Committee, an exalted group which includes the current Treasurer, the current President, the current President elect, the immediate past President, and a total of five other Past Presidents dating from 1994 to 2008.

Returning to the investigation of the overspends, it would seem that those in ‘power’ remain determined to keep the details of the failings of the RCVS and its inherent structures both from the public and the Members of the College. For the findings of the McKelvey Report remain completely private, though the recommendations (see ’http://www.rcvs.org.uk/document-library/recommendations-from-mckelvey-report/ ) make damning reading. Especially for all those who served as Officers throughout this period… the very people that Wynne holds in such esteem.

Re: What to put in your RCVS manifesto/how to get in

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 12 Nov 2011 11:42:51 GMT

What humiliating climbdown over what malicious and public characterisation of which Councillorf ? That's a genuine question,as I keep quite a close eye on things, and it's something I've missed

Also I agree that on that occasion RCVS bombed but how did the Minister have to humiliate himself ? I don't get the connection

Wynne

Re: What to put in your RCVS manifesto/how to get in

J G Wray — Sat, 12 Nov 2011 11:02:14 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]All I willsay about Chris Bs latest comment is don't take what he says at face value Check the FACTS for yourselves (inconvenient things facts, can spoil perfectly good rhetoric )[/quote]

Chris B speaks with authority. He was the only vet from practice invited to speak at the EFRACOM meeting to consider a new VSA - the one where the RCVS bombed and the Minister had to humiliate himself.

I doubt if anyone outside RCVS knows as much about RCVS as ChrisB. Furthermore, he is prepared to analyse RCVS rather than get sucked in by the plausibility of some of the ambitious at RCVS.

Recent FACTS include the humiliating climbdown by the Pres and Treasurer over the malicious and public characterisation of another Councillor, by some of those HWR is so enamoured of.

JGW

Re: What to put in your RCVS manifesto/how to get in

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 12 Nov 2011 10:46:11 GMT

All I willsay about Chris Bs latest comment is don't take what he says at face value Check the FACTS for yourselves (inconvenient things facts, can spoil perfectly good rhetoric )

Wynne

Re: What to put in your RCVS manifesto/how to get in

Anthony Todd — Sat, 12 Nov 2011 00:59:01 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]'boring drivel'[/quote]

"boring drivel because" is fine though surely??