History taking by mechanics.

Re: History taking by mechanics.

listhestar — Mon, 21 Nov 2011 19:18:51 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]There are 'mechanics' and then there are 'craftsmen'.[/quote]

Thank you, as someone who has a brother and dad who are mechanics/tech/grease monkeys by trade I am happy to see this. It does depend on the tech of course but my bro spent 3 years training and attends effectively cpd every 2-3 months to keep up to date. He can hear a misfire before he uses his stethoscope. I guess I am just very lucky to have such a good mechanic in the family.

Feel less spikey now

I am been know to dable in electronics having rewired my Dads dumper but alas have not a clue re engines! Find a good mechanic and stick with them!

Lisa

Re: History taking by mechanics.

derrick carpenter — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 17:14:31 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

First a Leatherman is more versatile than a Swiss Army knife.

[/quote]

I'd love to carry my leatherman around but unfortunately as the blade is locking you risk being arrested if caught with one, sorry it's a bit off topic.

Re: History taking by mechanics.

bob lehner — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 16:49:52 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

so would be the last person to think someone is beneath me for not having a degree.[/quote]

There are 'mechanics' and then there are 'craftsmen'.

I met an absolutely fascinating man the other day, who professionally restores vintage Rolls Royces and Bentleys for a living. He is only in his late 30s, but is an absolute master-craftsman. He told me he had to do a 4-year apprenticeship with a Bentley specialist before being let loose to do anything on his own.. He takes these wonderful old cars apart piece by piece and then puts them together again, with every last item cleaned, polished, re-chromed, re-painted etc. so that they look as though they have just come off the production line. Any spares that he can't get, he will make himself. and he has an encyclopaedic knowledge of the cars. I looked at some of the work he was doing in his workshop and was absolutely amazed and humbled.

He asked what I did for a living and said 'Oh, I couldn't do that' - but I had to tell him that I really thought he was far more highly skilled than me.

Re: History taking by mechanics.

SteveOwen — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 14:20:23 GMT

Ok, sorry. I read it as being sneery. I understand the term as being derogatory, but perhaps not to everyone. I thought your use of it seemed to be derogatory in any case. Anyway, problems with limited communication on internet forums I suppose.

Re: History taking by mechanics.

Clive Ansell — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 14:15:28 GMT

[quote user="SteveOwen"]

*whose finest grease monkeys.

As someone with a son who is a mechanic, I find this term very offensive. My son is a mechanic, but has a grasp of basic English. Are you above everyone who doesn't have a degree?

[/quote]

Certainly did not mean to offend, and if I did my apologies.

"grease monkey" is a known and accepted slang term for a mechanic, it was not meant to be derogatory.

I worked as a stockman, an HGV driver and for a short time in transport management for 9 years before gaining my veterinary degree, so would be the last person to think someone is beneath me for not having a degree.

Re: History taking by mechanics.

SteveOwen — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 13:30:04 GMT

*whose finest grease monkeys.

As someone with a son who is a mechanic, I find this term very offensive. My son is a mechanic, but has a grasp of basic English. Are you above everyone who doesn't have a degree?

Re: History taking by mechanics.

Clive Ansell — Fri, 04 Nov 2011 17:21:51 GMT

I have a similar tale.

My partners brand new VW Golf, only days out of the showroom started cutting out and misfiring. sometimes all lights would dim and the clock would lose power setting back to 00:00. at least 3 visits back to the VW main dealer, who's finest grease monkey's plugged in their laptops and "nothing wrong madam, maybe you're just stalling it, or not ise to it yet?" A little time latter it wouldn't start, so she called VW/Audi recovery and the loose battery connection was spotted withing the first minute by someone who knew what he was doing, no computer either.

It is worth having decent comprehensive breakdown cover. The will often diagnose faults, and have the necessary computers to read fault codes. You can then repair yourself. I recently replaced the air inlet sensor in the same car after being diagnosed faulty by the same breakdown cover.

Re: History taking by mechanics.

Bob Russell — Fri, 04 Nov 2011 17:01:32 GMT

I use a local garage. They do a brilliant job, cannot fault them and the little things such as blown bulbs they will change FOC if I am passing. If they tell me something big has to be fixed, I believe them and pay up.

I was sent down the road to the local car supplies shop to get a new battery. They told me only to get the good battery, the chap in the shop grumbled that they only use the best and he didn't have it in stock. He wished all garages were like them as it would make his life a lot easier.

Sadly had to take the cheap battery but may consider peeling the label off before the car goes in for its next wellness check or face having to explain why I did not do what I was told!

All the fancy computers in the world do not make a good mechanic (does this sound a little familiar?)!

Re: History taking by mechanics.

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 04 Nov 2011 16:18:55 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Ward"]

Thank you Mr RAC Man!

[/quote]

Yup I'm thinking of making the RAC my garage. The engine management light on my daughter's Polo kept coming on and she was complaining about poor performance and fuel economy. The VW dealer could find nothing wrong on the computer and just reset the light. Low and behold it came on again straight away and the car went back whereupon they declared that this time the computer said the lambda sensor in the catalytic converter was faulty. It was changed and guess what - yes the light came back on again. This time they said the whole catalytic converter needed changing as it was so clogged up the engine was about to fail. Yes you've guessed, I'm by now £1500 lighter in the pocket, the warning light came back again and the car finally ground to a halt in the dark, in the rain, in deepest, darkest Warwickshire. Said distraught daughter called dad who called the RAC and the nice RAC man instantly diagnosed a faulty ignition coil which showed signs of having an intermittent fault for months, not only that but this was obvious to anyone with the slightest mechanical knowledge the cause of all previous problems as it happens all the time with Polos. Nice RAC man didn't have the part so called another nice RAC man who turned up with one a few minutes later and the repair was effected. The repair was free but the part was £20 and said daughter being a penniless post-grad. student without immediate access to the Bank of Dad had no money, but nothing a few tears (and possibly a Daisy Duke impression) couldn't solve so nice RAC men let her off. Surprise, surprise the car has run faultlessly since and the VW dealer no longer has my custom. Cue same fault with second daughter's SEAT Ibiza (Polo clone), this time breakdown cover with Green Flag, Green Flagman couldn't make a diagnosis (or even speak much English actually), car was towed to local garage who said without any fancy computer, 'its the ignition coil, happens all the time on Ibiza's' and the offending coil was changed for a very modest output. Moral: join the RAC and use the local garage. This is hell of a hard way to get my last 2 posts for the 1,000!

Re: History taking by mechanics.

Cat Henstridge — Fri, 04 Nov 2011 15:41:26 GMT

Whenever I took my beloved MG into the garage for problems, I would always give them a full rundown of the presenting symptoms and history, I couldn't help myself. They would always listen carefully, nod politely and then, I'm pretty sure, do what they were doing to do anyway!

Having recently had a baby I have given the car to my parents and bought a much more practical (but much less fun) vehicle. The insurance people rang up the other day to remind me to renew and without thinking I told them that it had been rehomed!

Cat

Re: History taking by mechanics.

Tom Ward — Fri, 04 Nov 2011 15:39:28 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"] Now that takes me back "when I am living in the midlands That are sodden and unkind......."

[/quote]

It REALLY is at the moment - rain bouncing off the road in Warwickshire!

Re: History taking by mechanics.

Mark Rowland — Fri, 04 Nov 2011 15:23:33 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

Lord Finchley tried to mend the Electric Light

Himself. It struck him dead! And serve him right;

It is the business of the wealthy man,

To give employment to the artisan.

(Hilaire Belloc)

[/quote] Now that takes me back "when I am living in the midlands That are sodden and unkind......."

Re: History taking by mechanics.

Tom Ward — Fri, 04 Nov 2011 14:35:28 GMT

The saga is (hopefully) complete. On driving it back to the surgery from the garage (after they'd found nothing on the computer, and changed a random gasket) for my evening surgery it cut out 3 times at the same set of lights. Today it died on a main dual carriageway, necessitating a call to the RAC. The RAC man came out, explained exactly how all the clinical signs I'd been experiencing were related to a sticking EGR valve, unstuck it and off I drove. It then stuck again, I bought a new valve, fitted it myself and all (so far) seems well.... time will tell!! Thank you Mr RAC Man!

Re: History taking by mechanics.

Anthony Todd — Thu, 03 Nov 2011 23:39:39 GMT

[quote user="Eamon McAllister"]catastrophic failure of the X ray machine [/quote]

Sort of.

I was at Penn trying to learn a bit when I got a call to say that the Xray wouldn't work.

It was one I had imported my self and was, I think, the first portable Acoma in the country so no agent or backup.

It was such an advance on the Philips mobile which was the size of a JCB but heavier.

Told the vet to call a Xray tech, well advertised in the Record, who "had it in pieces all over the prep table" and said it was the tube.

I told said vet to get the brochure out of the file, contact Acoma in Japan and get a tube sent to us.

Heard nothing more and got back some weeks later.

"What happened with the Xray?" I asked.

"Oh" [with a sort of Tourettes twitch] said the vet, "We changed the developer".

Re: History taking by mechanics.

Julie Innes — Thu, 03 Nov 2011 22:39:27 GMT

I have been brought up with a healthy wariness of garages. Recently my car had an engine idle problem (which occasionally caused complete lack of power when turning out onto a busy road- nice) Took dad and husband a few goes, but was fixed for just the cost of the part. Dad is especially good and he uses logic, workshop manual and car forums to great effect. On the few occasions we have taken the cars to a garage (supposedly for quickness/ convenience), we have had poor results.

But just imagining that last sentiment turned round- someone who states they have had cats/ dogs all their life, and always do any veterinary work themselves, I realise I should possibly for saying it. There will be a few time-served mechanics going GRR out there if they read this!

Re: History taking by mechanics.

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 03 Nov 2011 21:27:18 GMT

Lord Finchley tried to mend the Electric Light

Himself. It struck him dead! And serve him right;

It is the business of the wealthy man,

To give employment to the artisan.

(Hilaire Belloc)

Re: History taking by mechanics.

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 03 Nov 2011 16:34:49 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

I always travel with Swiss army knife, but was told on one occasion that I could not cut out a piece of broken cable and refit the plug to a pair of clippers because it contravened health and safety regs? not sure if that is the case, but an electrician was called, so who knows what it cost?

Not sure to this day if it was a wind up, but I was told I could not change a lightbulb at the PDSA, as one had to have a certificate signed by an electrician to say one is competent to do so. it amused me; number 1 on the check list was "make sure light is turned off" - how would one know if the bulb is blown, particulary where there is >1 switch??

It is all very well to fix things, but what happens if one tries and it goes wrong?

[/quote]

First a Leatherman is more versatile than a Swiss Army knife. Secondly I believe the plug thing is tosh, you can after all do your own PAT testing with the correct circuit checker and some little green stickers so even if you broke health and safety regulations changing the plug you could PAT test it to say it was alright. However you would hope a degree of common sense would prevail, sadly in the days of no win - no fee lawyers common sense is an increasingly rare commodity.

Re: History taking by mechanics.

Clive Ansell — Thu, 03 Nov 2011 15:45:16 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

That said I wouldn't want to start delving into the electronics of a modern car, despite what Clive says: the days when I had the entire engine and gearbox of my Hillman Imp apart with nothing more than a workshop manual and socket set are long gone.

[/quote]

yes and no.

modern car electronics and management systems are complex and beyond the scope of most diy mechanics, and are really the monopoly of main dealers with the appropriate computers and software.

many other things, including most general servcing, remain the same though and are well within reach of a reasonably common sensed home mechanic: oil changes; oil, air and fuel filters, brake pads/shoes/discs etc. clutches and cambelts for the more adventurous. In some areas it is easier, gone are the days of contact breakers and ignition timing adjustment with a strobe light because it is now all computer controlled by an ecu and doesn't need adjusting.

Re: History taking by mechanics.

Simon Neuhoff — Thu, 03 Nov 2011 15:35:34 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

what make and model of car? how many miles? last serviced?

petrol or diesel?

does it start ok, when hot? when cold?

when does the fault occur? when hot ? when cold? when slow? at speed? during acceleration??

is it worse in wet or damp weather?

everything else work ok? is fuel consumption normal?

does it use any engine oil?

[/quote]

Eating and drinking normally?

No sickness or diarrhoea?

[/quote]

and how does it feel in itself?

Re: History taking by mechanics.

Clive Ansell — Thu, 03 Nov 2011 15:18:57 GMT

It is all very well to fix things, but what happens if one tries and it goes wrong?

Re: History taking by mechanics.

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 03 Nov 2011 15:15:11 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]we are the only trade or profession capable of taking a decent case history, forming a list of differentials and making a diagnosis[/quote]

Yes, but give your average assistant a simple leak in an anaesthetic machine or a problem with clippers and see what sort of diagnosis apart from "leaking" or "broken" you get.

We nearly sent a drip-pump off, for the second time, when no one realised it was mains powered with battery backup and had to be plugged in.

And our plumber rushed across London to tighten the hose outlet on the garden sprayer irrigating a dental scaler.

[/quote]

This is of course all truism and fits with what Tim said about blindly trusting lab profiles. The younger generation have lost the use of the connection between their hands and their brains, plus part of their brains it sometimes seems, because without a full laboratory work-up, an X-ray, an ultrasound scan and an MRI they can't diagnose a pyo. OK a bit harsh but you get the idea. I do despair with my staff that they don't even know which way to turn a tap on or off or fasten a screw sometimes, or can't put a rubbish bag in the bin because its full of air, the list is endless. Are us oldies the last of the multi-talented, multi-taskers? That said I wouldn't want to start delving into the electronics of a modern car, despite what Clive says: the days when I had the entire engine and gearbox of my Hillman Imp apart with nothing more than a workshop manual and socket set are long gone.

Re: History taking by mechanics.

Eamon McAllister — Thu, 03 Nov 2011 14:41:58 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]we are the only trade or profession capable of taking a decent case history, forming a list of differentials and making a diagnosis[/quote]

Yes, but give your average assistant a simple leak in an anaesthetic machine or a problem with clippers and see what sort of diagnosis apart from "leaking" or "broken" you get.

We nearly sent a drip-pump off, for the second time, when no one realised it was mains powered with battery backup and had to be plugged in.

And our plumber rushed across London to tighten the hose outlet on the garden sprayer irrigating a dental scaler.

[/quote]

Anthony - weren't you the one who got the sickening phonecall from a locum telling you about the catastrophic failure of the X ray machine whilst you were in Australia? Turned out that the fuse in the plug had blown.

Re: History taking by mechanics.

Anthony Todd — Thu, 03 Nov 2011 13:36:27 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]we are the only trade or profession capable of taking a decent case history, forming a list of differentials and making a diagnosis[/quote]

Yes, but give your average assistant a simple leak in an anaesthetic machine or a problem with clippers and see what sort of diagnosis apart from "leaking" or "broken" you get.

We nearly sent a drip-pump off, for the second time, when no one realised it was mains powered with battery backup and had to be plugged in.

And our plumber rushed across London to tighten the hose outlet on the garden sprayer irrigating a dental scaler.

Re: History taking by mechanics.

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 03 Nov 2011 13:14:38 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

what make and model of car? how many miles? last serviced?

petrol or diesel?

does it start ok, when hot? when cold?

when does the fault occur? when hot ? when cold? when slow? at speed? during acceleration??

is it worse in wet or damp weather?

everything else work ok? is fuel consumption normal?

does it use any engine oil?

[/quote]

Eating and drinking normally?

No sickness or diarrhoea?

Re: History taking by mechanics.

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 03 Nov 2011 13:05:06 GMT

[quote user="Tim Cheyne"]

Possibly the answer is that for many modern cars, up-to-date workshops just plug it into a computer that generates reams of paper work and an expensive but still incomplete diagnosis that keeps everybody happy for the moment. Could that possibly resemble some veterinarians with laboratory profiles?

Tim.

[/quote]

My car went in recently for mis-firing and they did take a decent history although it took 3 attempts to make sure they'd got the symptoms down correctly. The technician (not a mechanic these days) apparently 're-wrote' the engine management software and now it works perfectly. Cost £100 but no explanation why last time I complained about the misfire a year ago and it has been getting steadily worse since, they didn't find a fault then! A few years ago my BMW 525 failed to start, it was towed to the dealer and after a couple of days I'd heard nothing so I called them for news. I was told they'd just fitted a new engine and were road testing it. After scraping myself off the ceiling with visions of a massive bill for something I hadn't sanctioned, I was pacified when told that it had been replaced free of charge even though the car was out of warranty because it was a known fault due to the high sulphur levels in British petrol. It would have been nice to have been kept in the loop though.