Why bother?

Re: Why bother?

Bob Russell — Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:49:15 GMT

Or Plan E: restart vaccinations, sign and supply a correctly filled in card!

Re: Why bother?

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 18:39:07 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Or original plan A: consign this thread to the sin bin.[/quote]

Why? Because you can't win the argument?

[/quote]

Re: Why bother?

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 18:20:20 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Or original plan A: consign this thread to the sin bin.[/quote]

Why? Because you can't win the argument?

Re: Why bother?

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 17:45:36 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

Hoo boy, then you were signing a false certificate, because by filling in all those details you were certifying that the dog in front of you had received all those boosters which other vets (or not vets, unidentified of course) had signed for, but of course you could have no such knowledge because the dog was not identified at the times of those boosters........... dear oh dear.

[/quote]

So really we're damned if we do and damned if we don't . I guess I should have gone for plan B which was to issue my own certificate with just the booster, or C: add an appendix stating that I had only added the details at the date of my signature or D: give up and join the rest of the apathetic mob who don't value their signatures. Or original plan A: consign this thread to the sin bin.

Re: Why bother?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 17:28:25 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] insisted on completing the certificate and adding the practice stamp before I was prepared to sign for today's shot.[/quote]

Re: Why bother?

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:31:57 GMT

Notwithstanding my previous comment that this thread should go in the sin bin, there's nothing like being a hypocrite, so here's a slight variation on the theme. I've just administered a booster vaccine to a dog which was given its primary vaccines by a vet in the Epping area with whom I have had words in the past about providing incomplete vaccine certificates to puppies from a pet shop he services. That is not the point this time, the point is that this dog has had booster vaccines on 4 occasions since with different vets and each one has signed the certificate without the owner's details being completed or stamping it to identify who they are. So if you're a believer that these things should be completed properly: are the vets who gave the boosters any less guilty of incomplete certification than the one who gave the primary course? Needless to say the anally retentive part of me insisted on completing the certificate and adding the practice stamp before I was prepared to sign for today's shot.

Re: Why bother?

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 03 Nov 2011 13:03:20 GMT

[quote user="Braden Collins"]Just a quick thought from someone who used to work in the UK - if it was for a horse (before the whole passport thing came in) it was definately a certificate - any vet caught deliberately putting the wrong date in for a flu vaccine in could face a visit to the RCVS disciplinary mob for false certification.[/quote]

No - the offense here is to DELIBERATELY put something in writing that you know to be incorrect. It doesn't have to be on a certificate at all for it to be false certification. I know it seems a minor point, but the debate is about leaving something blank, not lying!

As I have said, I do not feel we should be shooting down in flames anyone who leaves a few boxes on a vaccination record blank. We have enough stress already without feeling that an error on a vaccination record may land us in front of the PIC. However, I also think that just a sticker, date and signature is too lazy. Some effort should be made to identify the animal and it's owner. There is a middle ground here, surely?

Re: Why bother?

Braden Collins — Thu, 03 Nov 2011 09:54:17 GMT

Just a quick thought from someone who used to work in the UK - if it was for a horse (before the whole passport thing came in) it was definately a certificate - any vet caught deliberately putting the wrong date in for a flu vaccine in could face a visit to the RCVS disciplinary mob for false certification. Should these documents be considered any differently if the card is for a dog or cat?

Re: Why bother?

Thomas Johnson — Thu, 03 Nov 2011 09:48:06 GMT

I agree with the view that whatever you call the vaccine card there is no excuse for not filling in the details of the person presenting the animal for vaccination, be they breeder or owner, and all of the puppy's details, except name if they haven't got one yet.

Re: Why bother?

Mark Hedberg — Wed, 02 Nov 2011 21:02:31 GMT

[quote user="Helen Wallace"]

In defence of the potentially alleged vets though I have had a puppy presented for 2nd vac with a poorly faked 1st vac card.... wasn't the one we used, wasn't my boss's signature despite his name and surgery address being on... breeder mysteriously uncontactable.... Luckily very good client who agreed they'd been had and completed a full vac course.

[/quote]

It's not the lying and deceit that hurts - it's the credit they give our intelligence... :(

Re: Why bother?

Helen Wallace — Wed, 02 Nov 2011 20:55:14 GMT

I'm in total agreement with Clive here. Whether its technically a certificate or not, isn't it just sloppy to hand out incomplete paperwork? I can't see any reason for it except laziness. Even in a busy clinic it doesn't take more than a minute to fill a card in properly.

Re: Why bother?

Julian Earl — Wed, 02 Nov 2011 20:43:53 GMT

Agreed Clive. The only point about referring to it as a certificate is that the document is then treated seriously and not half-filled in.

Re: Why bother?

Clive Ansell — Wed, 02 Nov 2011 20:02:50 GMT

I cannot understand why this is even is even an issue; instead of bickering about whether it is a "certificate" or not - it may only be a vaccine card - but do the job properly, charge properly for it, be thorough - be a professional !

Re: Why bother?

Stephen Courtney — Wed, 02 Nov 2011 19:30:05 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

Who is going to have the sorest head Bob, you or me?

[/quote]

Probably you. But nothing new!

Re: Why bother?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 02 Nov 2011 19:23:15 GMT

Who is going to have the sorest head Bob, you or me?

Re: Why bother?

Bob Russell — Wed, 02 Nov 2011 17:55:25 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"] Without a vets signature there is not a hope in hells chance of them taking a dog or a cat.[/quote]

How do they know the squiggle is a veterinary surgeon's signature? Do they keep specimen signatures for every vet?

[/quote]

I assume they don't keep specimen signatures for every vet but if they are unhappy with anything on a card they are on the phone in minutes. Why are people so determined to find excuses for not filling in a book just because it is not a perfect system?

If we behave professionally we are more likely to be respected as professionals.

Re: Why bother?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 02 Nov 2011 17:40:56 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"] Without a vets signature there is not a hope in hells chance of them taking a dog or a cat.[/quote]

How do they know the squiggle is a veterinary surgeon's signature? Do they keep specimen signatures for every vet?

Re: Why bother?

Bob Russell — Wed, 02 Nov 2011 17:19:18 GMT

[quote user="Vikki Halliday"]

Just use the practice stamp.

Then it's not a certificate.

Sorted.

[/quote]

Fine until the local kennels refuse to take the pet for boarding. We have two around here that are very particular about vaccination certificates. They face issues with their insurance policy becoming invalid for unvaccinated pets. Without a vets signature there is not a hope in hells chance of them taking a dog or a cat.

I find it amazing that instead of improving a certification process to make it more professional so many vets are more interested in finding ways of not signing an important document.

May be we should be handing such matters to people that are more willing to document their work accurately. White van man?

Re: Why bother?

Vikki Halliday LLB — Wed, 02 Nov 2011 17:07:27 GMT

Just use the practice stamp.

Then it's not a certificate.

Sorted.

Re: Why bother?

Rob Loxley — Wed, 02 Nov 2011 16:14:45 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

To be more constructive, I would appreciate views on how to make the system better!

[/quote]

Compulsory microchipping would seem essential to tie the paperwork to the animal, and would have myriad other benefits IMHO.
Then certificates with room to sign and stamp the entries?

Re: Why bother?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 02 Nov 2011 15:02:17 GMT

It should go in the sin bin because the same arguments are being banded about by the same people time and time again and has already been done to death in a similar thread I started, This is real Marmite topic. You and I think alike Bob but there are plenty of people who seem to think differently, my thread started becoming abusive, we wouldn't want Arlo handing out cards would we? Once again -

Re: Why bother?

Bob Russell — Wed, 02 Nov 2011 14:50:37 GMT

Should it go in the sin bin just because people cannot agree? This is an important issue and the casual approach by some vets astounds me. I really do wonder how much of this is carelessness, bloody-mindedness or just downright laziness?

To be more constructive, I would appreciate views on how to make the system better!

Re: Why bother?

Bob Russell — Wed, 02 Nov 2011 14:38:28 GMT

I have re-posted one page on the original post. The back had the vets name/address/logo and nothing else. The new owners filled in the details from the microchip form.

If members of the profession consider this brings the profession into anything less than disrespect they have a very different view to mine. The new owners were horrified and so was I.

Those that treat this sort of documentation with the obvious contempt they seem to make me despair. How are kennels supposed to rely on documentation such as this if there is a cavalier attitude from the professionals trusted to do the job?

Once again many thanks Arlo for picking up that both pages had been scanned. We have new, all singing, all dancing computers and a smart new printer that 'duplexes'!! I now know what duplexing is!

If I am going to report anyone to anyone else I will give the perceived 'offender' the right to defend their actions first!

Re: Why bother?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 02 Nov 2011 14:37:31 GMT

Isn't it time this subject was sent to the sin bin along with RMB? For the record I completely agree with Julian and all who hold a similar view.

x n

Re: Why bother?

Clive Ansell — Wed, 02 Nov 2011 14:07:59 GMT

It doesn't matter whether one calls it a certificate, a vaccine card, a record card, or anything else. It is a document that states an animal has been vaccinated and has a professional, veterinary surgeons, signature to verify it. I believe if it is inaccurate or incomplete it should not be signed. I will always put as much information as possible on the card/certificate.record card; owners/breeders name and address, colour, species, breed, age/dob, and sex of the animal. In situations such as a large litter of puppies where individual identification is difficult, I will put additional information, such as body weight, black patch over eye, umbilical hernia etc.