Dentistry teaching

Re: Dentistry teaching

Helen Wallace — Mon, 31 Oct 2011 20:19:10 GMT

I went to Glasgow and have to say Norman Johnston's course was great. I was also lucky that I saw practice with a vet who really enjoyed his dentistry. He didn't have any specialist qualifications but he had done a lot of cpd and made sure I did a lot of hands on dental work as a student. Something I really appreciated once I found myself in practice.

Re: Dentistry teaching

midlandsvet973 — Mon, 31 Oct 2011 20:14:07 GMT

[quote user="SteveOwen"]Approx how many lectures?

[/quote]I think about 20 but no longer have the notes to say for sure - they were reasonably well taught by a vet working in private practice. Could have been better but think that could go for a lot of courses plus some form of exotics rotation would have been useful.

Re: Dentistry teaching

Julian Earl — Mon, 31 Oct 2011 18:45:37 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Julian Earl"]The teacher, whose name I'm ashamed to say I've forgotten, was South African[/quote]

Gerhard Putter?

[/quote]

That sounds familiar. So, a cautious yes then. He was very good.

Re: Dentistry teaching

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 31 Oct 2011 15:38:27 GMT

We have no control over EU but EU has control over us

Wynne

Re: Dentistry teaching

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 31 Oct 2011 15:30:51 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Evelyn Cambridge tried to make meat inspection optional a few years back-and were told they couldn'tbecause the EEC wouldn't allow it[/quote]

I didn't know that. Very strange. Especially strange when we have to grant MRCVS to anyone graduated from an "EC" veterinary school but have no control whatsoever over the curriculum or quality.

Re: Dentistry teaching

bob lehner — Mon, 31 Oct 2011 15:17:17 GMT

I've no idea who decides on the exact make up of the veterinary undergraduate courses - but clearly the curriculum should be reviewed periodically to take account of what is actually going on in the real world of veterinary practice - where the vast majority of graduates will end up.

Experienced practitioners should be consulted (and listened to) on this by those in charge of planning the courses. I would have thought a review every 5 years or so would be appropriate in view of how life in practice changes all the time. For example - who would have predicted 20 years ago that bunnies would be a big player in most city s.a. practices these days ? Are the academics currently aware of this type of trend in time to amend the course accordingly ?

Personally I have long believed that the failure to teach small animal (and until recently, equine) dentistry at the vet schools was a scandal.

Clearly most graduates end up in s.a. practice, where routine dentistry is one of the most common day-to-day procedures and as such should be adequately taught as a day-one skill.

Things like meat-hygiene, pig and poultry medicine are only going to be of interest to a small no of grads these days and should be weighted correspondingly on the undergraduate course.

Re: Dentistry teaching

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 31 Oct 2011 10:00:28 GMT

Steve I agree an ounce of experience is worth a ton of theory

Wynne

Re: Dentistry teaching

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 31 Oct 2011 09:59:05 GMT

Evelyn Cambridge tried to make meat inspection optional a few years back-and were told they couldn'tbecause the EEC wouldn't allow it

I hated it,particularly the visit to a horse abattoir, which was horrendous, but that's immaterial.My point is that in an overcrowded curriculum,it's absurd for everyone to waste time on it It could still be there but as an option

Wynne

Re: Dentistry teaching

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 31 Oct 2011 00:22:18 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]Why the red star? J[/quote]

www.youtube.com/watch

Oh dear, I couldn't resist it.

Re: Dentistry teaching

Mark Holmes — Sun, 30 Oct 2011 23:26:57 GMT

Why the red star? Just describing what I saw. A dog who has lived as rough as hell for 9 years with an immaculate mouth. I have no problems with people single starring my opinions but a simple description without qualification, seems odd.

Re: Dentistry teaching

Mark Holmes — Sun, 30 Oct 2011 20:56:33 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]On the other hand, why don't we just feed them all RMB, then we wouldn't need any training would we[/quote] Actually I have just examined an old German Shepherd dog, 9 ish years old. It has been fed fallen stock it's whole life. Au natural as it were. It's teeth were immaculate. Crowns a bit worn but no disease, tartar or staining at all.

Re: Dentistry teaching

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 30 Oct 2011 19:30:01 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]The teacher, whose name I'm ashamed to say I've forgotten, was South African[/quote]

Gerhard Putter?

Re: Dentistry teaching

Julian Earl — Sun, 30 Oct 2011 19:14:59 GMT

It would be a major step forward if we received better dental training; my time at college was too long ago to be really relevant to this discussion but it was skimmed over. I just copied what I had seen other people do, which I now feel was a bit primitive.

I attended a four hour session on difficult extractions last year and it revolutionised my approach. I'd read articles and made my best attempt at doing flaps, which were usually okay, but to be shown how to do it "properly" step-by-step was wonderful. All those horrendous extractions are no longer feared and it was genuinely some of the best and most useful, practical CPD I've ever done.

The teacher, whose name I'm ashamed to say I've forgotten, was South African and I believe teaches at Cambridge as well as running a referral place in the south-east. (Evelyn will probably know who he is.)

Anyway, I now enjoy dentals because although they can still be tricky, I know the correct procedure. So that's progress I suppose...

On the other hand, why don't we just feed them all RMB, then we wouldn't need any training would we?

Re: Dentistry teaching

SteveOwen — Sun, 30 Oct 2011 19:01:04 GMT

Approx how many lectures?

Re: Dentistry teaching

midlandsvet973 — Sun, 30 Oct 2011 18:33:07 GMT

I graduated from Cambridge a couple of years ago - we got lectures with John Robinson and a half day practical with dog heads practising extractions in 5th year. I think we had some dental radiography covered in our radiography rotation. I agree more time should be spent on practical dental tuition though.

[quote user="SteveOwen"]Cambridge still gets 1 day on exotics, including rabbits, last time I checked.

[/quote]

Steve - When I was there we got a lecture course on exotics - not brilliant but more than a day's worth!you seem a bit negative about Cambridge!

Re: Dentistry teaching

SteveOwen — Sun, 30 Oct 2011 14:25:14 GMT

Maybe some farm animal lecturers who had stepped on a farm in the last decade would help sometimes! (cough, Cambridge)

Re: Dentistry teaching

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 30 Oct 2011 13:53:27 GMT

Wynne

I really enjoyed my week in the abattoir. Saw loads of good pathology, brilliant reminder on certain bits of anatomy - not very often you get an entire set of vicera in front of you. I do think it's valuable. Never eaten so many free pies in a week.

Should we do more time on dentistry - possibly. But it's not really something that lends itself more to practical real life tuition rather than sitting in a lecture theatre. I'm more concerned by the lack of practical surgical experience. I'd rather a new grad made a hash of dentals rather than a hash of a bitch spay. There is just so much on the course that they can't give enough time to everything.

Personally I think we spent far too much time on small animals and horses, with the farm side being neglected. You will never keep everyone happy.

Re: Dentistry teaching

SteveOwen — Sun, 30 Oct 2011 13:53:14 GMT

Agreed - don't knock VPH. I loved it, with no intention to work as OVS. Vet med is a bit wider than sticking thermometers up dogs' bottoms. Just one example - I learned a lot more gross pathology than at any other point in my education.

Re: Dentistry teaching

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 30 Oct 2011 13:50:06 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

We wasted an awful lot of time on abattoir visits,as well as 1 whole week EMS The only practical result was to turn 1 student vegetarian If we could get out of the EEC we could drop this part of the course completely-those who (want?????????? ) to do it later have to do an OVS course anyway, so why waste everybody else's time ? PC (to fit in with EEC ) lunacy

Wynne

[/quote]

Wynne, you know my feelings on the "EU" but this is one thing you cannot blame on it.

Actually I thought the meat-inspection course, especialy the practical part, was quite useful in a general way even though I had no desire to go in to that branch. I don't think it was 55 lectures long though! That does seem excessive.

Re: Dentistry teaching

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sun, 30 Oct 2011 13:30:30 GMT

Wynne

Re: Dentistry teaching

David Mills — Sun, 30 Oct 2011 13:12:56 GMT

[quote user="Alan Tevendale"]

Edinburgh 2005. Again there was great input from Norman Johnston but definately not enough practical experienced compared to the throughput we end up seeing in GP. Should we all be lobbying BVA, RCVS etc for a greater teaching requirement?

[/quote]

Yes. Considering the bloated VPH part of the curriculum currently commands 55 lectures, an abattoir visit and a farm visit I think the amount of time given to dentistry is despicable. It would, in my view, were I a RVC student, amount to a breach of contract in terms of the basic requirements of being an MRCVS. It's indefensible.

Re: Dentistry teaching

Alan Tevendale — Sun, 30 Oct 2011 12:42:33 GMT

Re: Dentistry teaching

Claire McConnell — Sun, 30 Oct 2011 09:46:17 GMT

Being from RVC also 1 year graduated, I have to agree with BusyBee that our dentistry teaching was poor at best. And no practical element at all.

I have learnt extractions as I go in practice and it generally seems to be working well (?? most of the time) but I always am thinking if there is a better way or whether actualy practical teaching would help with difficult ones. - better techniques and such.

Re: Dentistry teaching

Claire Edgington — Sun, 30 Oct 2011 09:36:18 GMT

I graduated from Edinburgh in 2003 and we had the brilliant Norman Johnston (the only person I've met that has made me enthusiastic about dentals!). We had a week of lectures and then 1 day with him in clinic. Unfortunately I can't remember actually being able to do extractions in practice. I agree that in practice there is a lack of interest in doing things well. In my first practice I didn't have a drill and it was suggested that I use a hacksaw to split the roots of teeth!!

Re: Dentistry teaching

Stephen Ashman — Sun, 30 Oct 2011 09:20:32 GMT

[quote user="Ian Mostyn"]

All I got at Edinburgh was 1 lecture on oral surgery from a soft tissue surgeon. The week when we were meant to do clinical dentistry, the lecturer was abroad at a conference. Exotics was much better though ........

Ian

[/quote]

We had more lectures than that 5 years ago at Edinburgh; the one day scheduled for practical dentistry fell on a bank holiday so it was cancelled for our group. Half a bitch spay for surgery...