Internships

Re: Internships

Lucy K — Fri, 28 Oct 2011 17:43:52 GMT

No idea why that was posted twice.

Re: Internships

Lucy K — Fri, 28 Oct 2011 17:29:58 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

I know a few people who've done good internships as a route into a residency, who said they looked on the internship as a year of free CPD with acoomodation and basic pay thrown in, and seemed unbothered by suggestions that they were exploitative...

[/quote]

Well, these two don't seem bothered by it either but I have to say it galls me to think that this wealthy horse practice is getting two qualified vets for free.

Re: Internships

Lucy K — Fri, 28 Oct 2011 17:29:58 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

[/quote]

Well, these two don't seem bothered by it either but I have to say it galls me to think that this wealthy horse practice is getting two qualified vets for free.

Re: Internships

Rob Loxley — Fri, 28 Oct 2011 15:43:58 GMT

[quote user="Lucy K"]It's a year long internship and completely unpaid! I'm not sure if I'd be that dedicated! [/quote]

Re: Internships

Lucy K — Fri, 28 Oct 2011 15:05:03 GMT

I am a final year student and I'm currently looking at internships because I want to go into horse practice and it seems to me that more and more employers are seeking people who have done an internship somewhere. The other reason is that I would like to practice in Australia until the economic situation in Ireland picks up so doing an internship in Aus would go a long way towards getting a job there, hopefully.

On the salary side of things, I know two interns at an equine practice who get only accomodation and a car. It's a year long internship and completely unpaid! I'm not sure if I'd be that dedicated!

Re: Internships

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 15:15:31 GMT

A lot depends on the luck (or otherwise ) of the colleagues you work with

I did a house-physicianship at Cambridge By far the most eminent member of staff at that time was Leslie Hall He was also incredibly kind and supportive,and although the drugs used then have gone out of date, his principles remain with me.I also learned a lot of Clin Path at that time

Some others who themselves were only a year or 2 more experienced, and still wet behind the ears themselves took pleasure in humiliating me at every opportunity-probably to cover their own hopeless inadequacies

As for the politics -the least said the better-horrendous back-stabbing-and in front of both students and lay staff-and referring practitioners mocked when junior clinicians discussed cases with students-with no allowance made for the lack of sophisticated equipment in many practices at that time

Wynne

Re: Internships

David Mills — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 13:54:35 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

this is nothing more than gross exploitation. How sad that we have so little respect for keen enthusiastic young veterinary surgeons, and the schools that operate such systems should be ashamed.

[/quote]

This is what worried me when talking to our work experience vet. At college, the interns seemed to get the sh1tty end of the stick, working OOH holding paws and checking drips, talking to owners and chasing up tests whilst having no/little case responsibility apart from the occasional one when the students weren't there - like a glorified student in many ways. It seemed little more than a tick-box exercise to go onto residency and it seemed to be that they selected mainly Spanish/Australian/SA vets and those who were easily moulded (1/2 years qualified) - in return the foreign vets would see this as an opportunity to gain a foothold in the UK profession. There were no in-depth case discussions and the interns were humiliated and downtrodden as much, if not more, than final years.

It seems a great pity really.

Re: Internships

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 09:46:40 GMT

Advantage of an internship-the chance to discuss cases with some real experts more fully than you could as an undergraduate, especially in these days of huge classes

Disadvantage-you'll be in a large organisation-might suit some, but you can, through no fault of your own get embroiled in departmental politics. Staff member A hates staff member B, so if your'e friendly with B you're automatically on the wrong side of A who takes the attitude "if you're not with us you're against us " Easier said than done to steer clear

Read CP Snow's novel-"The Masters " If you can stand that sort of environment and are ambitious, then an internship is for you. If you just want toget on with the job, then you will probably be better off with 1 boss who you're broadly in agreement with

Wynne

Re: Internships

J G Wray — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 07:30:33 GMT

Prof Noakes wrote this in the VR earlier this year. Says it all really

"..

AT this stage of my career, I do not normally read details of advertisements for ‘junior clinical training scholarships’, thus I am very disturbed and saddened to read John Innes's letter (VR, August 20, 2011, vol 169, p 212).Obviously, as a current senior clinical academic, he does, and I have no reason to question the accuracy of his facts.

I can remember in the 1990s when the then titles of salaried internships and residencies were changed to ‘veterinary clinical training scholarships’ purely for the reasons that he states in his letter, namely to save institutions money by removing the statutory requirements of paying National Insurance and superannuation, as well as exempting them from nationally and locally negotiated pay scales. At the time I had reservations about the change, but as always, since higher education institutions were under financial pressure, I reluctantly agreed. I also know that similar concerns were expressed by the then personnel department.

To cite one of Professor Innes's examples, namely, expecting a veterinary graduate on a tax-free stipend of £12,500 to spend 40 per cent of their time working out-of-hours, with a ‘generous’ annual holiday allowance of 15 days per annum, this is nothing more than gross exploitation. How sad that we have so little respect for keen enthusiastic young veterinary surgeons, and the schools that operate such systems should be ashamed. I agree with Professor Innes's suggestion that they should seek to join representative organisations, which will have expertise on legal and employment issues. In my time, the then lecturers' union, namely the AUT, would have been such a body..."

JGW

Re: Internships

Louise6732 — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 23:04:46 GMT

I applied for a couple of internships earlier this year and had 2 interviews. Both were at Universities. RVC seems like an extremely good internship programme, there are 12 interns in all, each rotating through different disciplines and they have a space for the intern in each place, not just to linger in the corner in the hope you'll get to put an IV cath in!

I think uni ones are more geared towards supporting students than actually being able to do procedures. Private internships seem like a good deal too though, the salary is generally more than uni ones. Usually accomodation is provided but always worth checking.

Louise

Re: Internships

An On MRCVS — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 18:29:21 GMT

[quote user="SteveOwen"]Isn't their income tax-free, so works out about the same as someone in first couple of years in PP? [/quote]

I'm posting as Anon as always taught not to discuss salaries directly.

My friend did an internship at RVC straight from uni a year ago, whilst I entered private practice and there was a large difference (>£5,000) (post tax for me) in our first year salaries even though her wage was tax free.

However I would say the most common reason to do an internship from people I know is to go on to a residency so well worth it if that is the route you wish to take...

Re: Internships

Anne Seawright — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 10:00:37 GMT

Yes the stipend is tax free but varies quite a bit between universities/practices. In my experience the interns I have met have all been very confident and strongly driven to do a residency and see the internship as a route in.

Re: Internships

SteveOwen — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:53:43 GMT

I always thought that internships were for the less confident, who weren't quite ready to have the apron strings cut. Not a criticism, nice niche for such people and for the institution!

Re: Internships

SteveOwen — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:52:02 GMT

Isn't their income tax-free, so works out about the same as someone in first couple of years in PP?

Re: Internships

Frances Barr — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:51:25 GMT

Completion of an internship is increasingly required, or looked on favourably, when applying for residencies. They're definitely aimed at new or recent grads. Personally I think a year in a good practice, with support from more experienced colleagues, provides a better all round training because most internships carry little case responsibility. But if a residency is the aim, then the system currently means an intership is probably a good plan.

Re: Internships

plantagenet — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 08:48:23 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]My experience at college was that they were mainly taken by foreign vets[/quote]

Is this because British grads can't afford to do them - is student debt the same all over europe?

Re: Internships

Claire Edgington — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 08:03:34 GMT

I haven't done an internship myself but I have a few friends that have. Good reports all round about them. Usually they're designed for people that are 1-3 years qualified. I think each uni varies greatly by the structure of the internship.