EEC Referendum

Re: EEC Referendum

Bob Russell — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 11:11:21 GMT

[quote user="SteveOwen"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Having had to jump through a million hoops to allow my wife and daughter to live in the UK

[/quote]

Where are they from? How did you meet? Just curious!

[/quote]

Met at WSAVA in Bangkok in 2003!

Re: EEC Referendum

Mark Holmes — Tue, 25 Oct 2011 22:25:25 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]the Euro - is artificially low[/quote]

[quote user="Ian Mostyn"]I am glad we didn't join the Euro - not the greatest invention.[/quote]

Interesting however that the £ has steadily weakened against the Euro over the past 6 years and is currently worth about 30% less on the currency markets than it was in 2005 - and even despite the recent European banking crisis - where the £/Euro rate has remained virtually unchanged over the past 6 months. Doesn't say a lot for international sentiment with regard to the £.

[/quote] The pound is currently low due to recent quantitive easing and low interest rates. Increase the number of pounds in circulation and decrease their relative value.

Re: EEC Referendum

bob lehner — Tue, 25 Oct 2011 21:18:16 GMT

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]the Euro - is artificially low[/quote]

[quote user="Ian Mostyn"]I am glad we didn't join the Euro - not the greatest invention.[/quote]

Re: EEC Referendum

Gerry Henry — Tue, 25 Oct 2011 21:15:18 GMT

I have no desire to end up in a state like an old SSR hence my determination to get the UK out of the EUSSR. Looking forward to Turkey joining (against the wishes of 99% of the European people), then we can all have a good laugh as EU international arrest warrants are served by Germans on Turks for denying the Jewish holocaust, and by Turks on Armenians for asserting the truth of the Armenian holocaust, both criminal offences in their respective countries, what a farce.

Re: EEC Referendum

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 25 Oct 2011 20:56:20 GMT

Leadership still begins at the top. "We're bad, but they're worse" isn't exactly a thrilling vote of confidence for the UK. And calling it the EUSSR is a bit of a joke, if we look at the services the UK provides to many of her citizens. I mean, no offense, but NHS, benefits, free education 'till 16... the UK isn't exactly libertarian.

I'm not denying that reform is needed. I think a good housecleaning would do a world of good, because if the EU behaved in a clear and transparent way, we'd have a lot more trust. In the end, I think this financial crisis will force the EU to undergo necessary reforms.

I doubt it'll be enough to get you to stop calling it the EUSSR (If you've actually LIVED in a communist people's republic, you'd realize how silly calling the eu an SSR sounds), but I'm not winning that battle today.

Re: EEC Referendum

Gerry Henry — Tue, 25 Oct 2011 20:32:26 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"][quote user="Gerry Henry"]

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

Yes, let's all spend lots of money on visas and customs duties - after all, having more trade barriers is great when we're seeking to go on holiday now!

And of course, let's not forget ACP - isn't it lucky that once we're out of the EU, it'll be harder to import medications when a local factory has "manufacturing problems" and we're out of anesthetics!

Let's also give a big hand when all the big supermarkets raise their prices as it becomes more expensive to import anything foreign-made.

We'll all go buy Vauxhall now, as that's a good British make! (Oh, wait - it's all license produced Opels and Suzukis now!)

Yes, out with the EU! :)

[/quote]

You don't seem to be able to differentiate between a common market (good) and the EUSSR superstate (bad); corrupt beyond belief, largely unaccountable, undemocratic, stuffed with delta minus drones who between them, through a mixture of ineptitude and wilful disregard of their own rules, permitted countries like Greece, Portugal and Italy to join the Euro with the disasterous results that we're seeing today.

Re the War (s), I thought we fought them to resist the Second and Third Reichs, are we going to submit to Merkel's Fourth Reich just for an easy life?

[/quote]

As opposed to that paragon of integrity and honor, the Great British Member of Parliament? Don't make me laugh. :)

If Germany is doing economically well, one should seek to find why they succeed, not wish them failure.

[/quote]

The recent MP corruption scandal is as nothing compared to the organised kleptocracy that is the EUSSR. Why are the Germans doing well? manufacturing/exporting economy stimulated beyond belief because their currency - the Euro - is artificially low due to dead beats and losers like Greece and Portugal; if the Euro collapsed the Mark would go through the roof and the export boom would end, abruptly.

Re: EEC Referendum

SteveOwen — Tue, 25 Oct 2011 18:00:40 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Having had to jump through a million hoops to allow my wife and daughter to live in the UK

[/quote]

Where are they from? How did you meet? Just curious!

Re: EEC Referendum

Bob Russell — Tue, 25 Oct 2011 17:59:30 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"][quote user="Gerry Henry"]

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

Yes, let's all spend lots of money on visas and customs duties - after all, having more trade barriers is great when we're seeking to go on holiday now!

Let's also give a big hand when all the big supermarkets raise their prices as it becomes more expensive to import anything foreign-made.

We'll all go buy Vauxhall now, as that's a good British make! (Oh, wait - it's all license produced Opels and Suzukis now!)

Yes, out with the EU! :)

[/quote]

Re the War (s), I thought we fought them to resist the Second and Third Reichs, are we going to submit to Merkel's Fourth Reich just for an easy life?

[/quote]

As opposed to that paragon of integrity and honor, the Great British Member of Parliament? Don't make me laugh. :)

If Germany is doing economically well, one should seek to find why they succeed, not wish them failure.

[/quote]

Hard work, self-discipline, no expectation that the system will do it all for them. A modern post-war infrastructure will have helped in the past but they do have problems with immigration as well!

I definitely do not wish them failure. The UK is not perfect but it is not all doom and gloom either. If it was why would anyone want to come here to live?

Re: EEC Referendum

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 25 Oct 2011 17:31:47 GMT

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

Yes, let's all spend lots of money on visas and customs duties - after all, having more trade barriers is great when we're seeking to go on holiday now!

Let's also give a big hand when all the big supermarkets raise their prices as it becomes more expensive to import anything foreign-made.

We'll all go buy Vauxhall now, as that's a good British make! (Oh, wait - it's all license produced Opels and Suzukis now!)

Yes, out with the EU! :)

[/quote]

Re the War (s), I thought we fought them to resist the Second and Third Reichs, are we going to submit to Merkel's Fourth Reich just for an easy life?

[/quote]

As opposed to that paragon of integrity and honor, the Great British Member of Parliament? Don't make me laugh. :)

If Germany is doing economically well, one should seek to find why they succeed, not wish them failure.

Re: EEC Referendum

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 25 Oct 2011 17:31:23 GMT

Hear hear Mark Human rights becoming criminal rights is one of the worst things about it

What about the human right of the law-abiding majority to live their lives free from the fear of crime ?

Wynne

Re: EEC Referendum

Mark Holmes — Tue, 25 Oct 2011 13:11:14 GMT

The problem with the EU is not the free trade, thats the good bit. However as far as I am concerned what is debated and determined in our houses of parliament should be sovereign in this country. The creep of the EU into matter which don't concern it is what irritates. For example the prisoner vote. Not relevant to Europe. Regardless of how you feel about it, the decision is for our government. I would most certainly vote for leaving the the EU, and keeping ourselves limited to a free trade agreement with limits allowed on migration.

Call me nationalistic but we are GREAT BRITAIN and the Queen's government and judiciary should be subject to no higher jurisdiction than the Queen herself.

Re: EEC Referendum

Bob Russell — Tue, 25 Oct 2011 09:41:51 GMT

Watched a very depressing programme about child beggars on London streets mainly. it seems Romanian. Sorry I cannot see much justification in allowing third world countries free and almost uncontrolled access to the UK.

By all means have the EU assist these countries but not bring them into the fold. Romanians/Albanians are allowed to come over here and work but not claim benefits for a year. The EU is a necessary evil but the madness of expansion seems almost unlimited.

Get the existing countries sorted out (if it can be done) and help others enter the 20th Century let alone the 21st whilst keeping a certain distance.

Having had to jump through a million hoops to allow my wife and daughter to live in the UK (including thousands on visa fees) it bugs me that the powers that be can consider this process realistic!

Reduce the madness and attitudes would rapidly become more moderate.

Re: EEC Referendum

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 25 Oct 2011 09:30:59 GMT

My understanding is that WW1 was a Balkan spat which was allowed to escalate due to international treaties being honoured. Some areas of the Austro-Hungarian(A-H ) empire were inhabited by ethnic Serbs who wished to join Serbia.A Serbian assasinated the heir to the A-H empire A-H declared war on Serbia

Russia had a treaty to aid Serbia, so declared war on A-H

Germany had a treaty toaid A-H

France had a treaty to aid Russia

Germany went through Belgium to attack France

We had a treaty toaid Belgium

Consequence of WW1-downfall of the Kaiser, and political upheaval/vacuum led to the rise of an evil and insane man whose megalomania led to WW2

If everyone had minded their own business in 1914-or better still, never signed the treaties in the 1st place-just left A-H and Serbia sort their own differences out-the appalling slaughter of both men and horses that took place in WW1 could have been avoided-and the course of the 20th C been much happier

Wynne

Re: EEC Referendum

Gerry Henry — Tue, 25 Oct 2011 09:01:47 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

Yes, let's all spend lots of money on visas and customs duties - after all, having more trade barriers is great when we're seeking to go on holiday now!

Let's also give a big hand when all the big supermarkets raise their prices as it becomes more expensive to import anything foreign-made.

We'll all go buy Vauxhall now, as that's a good British make! (Oh, wait - it's all license produced Opels and Suzukis now!)

Yes, out with the EU! :)

[/quote]

Re the War (s), I thought we fought them to resist the Second and Third Reichs, are we going to submit to Merkel's Fourth Reich just for an easy life?

Re: EEC Referendum

plantagenet — Tue, 25 Oct 2011 08:30:05 GMT

Norway seems happy too.

We need to remember the history of the USSR - the previously federated member states are not best buddies now, possibly because they had federation forced upon them.

Re: EEC Referendum

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 23:14:29 GMT

The Swiss seem to be doing OK.

Re: EEC Referendum

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 22:37:47 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]As someone whose family, along with millions of others, was devastated by the last war in Europe[/quote]

Mine too. And part of my family is Polish: I find a bitter irony in the fact that we declared war in 1939 to save Poland from the Germans (nominally at any rate) only to end up handing her over to the Russians, who were even worse. Come on, the Great War and the Second World War were fought, in Europe, to throw back German aggression. And that in turn arose from the French-German mutual aggression that had gone on for a century before. The British could have just kept aside and let them get on with it and then traded with the victor.

Then the Common Market was invented as a means of interlocking France and Germany so closely, economically, that they could never go to war again. Meanwhile, the Soviet Union was an enormous threat. Edward Heath's government rammed us into the Common Market, which was supposed to be a free trade union as its name suggests. We didn't have to do that, we could have joined EFTA. We should not have so shamefully abandoned the Commonwealth. Anyway, we got a referendum on the Common Market (and the No campaign was hopelessly badly run) and the country voted to join the Common Market. That was the last time we were ever asked what we wanted to do. Nobody voted for the "EEC" , still less for the "EU" and the progressive surrender of our freedom to rule by un-elected, un-named, un-accountable People Who Know What's Best For Us in a corrupt organisation (how many years running have the auditors refused to sign off the accounts?) in Brussels (except when it's in Strasbourg). Nobody voted for us to pay billions of pounds, net, every year to this organisation.

The Continental Europeans who are happy with the EC are often used, historically, to living under authoritarian, barely accountable regimes and have their own ways of dealing with the laws that are handed down: like, for instance, ignoring them. It's the myopic and insular British who feel that these laws have to be obeyed, nay not just obeyed but extended and gold-plated.

[quote user="bob lehner"] In my opinion getting hot and bothered about some piffling issues arising from over-enthusiastic European officials[/quote]

If you think that being told what to do and what not to do by people who were never elected, that you have no chance of voting for, that you have no control over, and paying mightily for the privilege, is a piffling matter you would probably have been happier if the Soviet Union had succeeded in swallowing us up.

Re: EEC Referendum

Ian Mostyn — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:56:16 GMT

Yes for the EU as a co-operative group of nations with similar aims but no to a federal superstate. Yes to freedom of trade, freedom of movement, standardisation & harmonisation of trade. Yes to friendship, combined military strength & a united stand against the world. No to monetary union, meddling & petty rules, no to getting rid of veto, further political integration.

There is plenty to gain from being close within Europe but we need to be able to run our own finances and day-to-day life. I am glad we didn't join the Euro - not the greatest invention.

Ian

Re: EEC Referendum

bob lehner — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 20:47:19 GMT

Absolutely not ! The value of having a politically united Europe is beyond price. We have had probably the longest period in recorded history where the major European nations have not waged war against each other. In my opinion getting hot and bothered about some piffling issues arising from over-enthusiastic European officials completely overlooks the wider picture. As someone whose family, along with millions of others, was devastated by the last war in Europe I can't even begin to understand the arguement for weakening the alliance of European states. I think most continental Europeans share this view - it's just the myopic and insular Brits who refuse to see the real value of a united Europe. Vive Europe !

Re: EEC Referendum

Mark Hedberg — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 20:14:36 GMT

Yes, let's all spend lots of money on visas and customs duties - after all, having more trade barriers is great when we're seeking to go on holiday now!

Let's also give a big hand when all the big supermarkets raise their prices as it becomes more expensive to import anything foreign-made.

We'll all go buy Vauxhall now, as that's a good British make! (Oh, wait - it's all license produced Opels and Suzukis now!)

Yes, out with the EU! :)

Re: EEC Referendum

plantagenet — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 17:51:02 GMT

Listening to radio 5 live this morning, I heard an MP justifying her no vote by saying now was not the time for a referendum because of the serious financial state of the world. My 15 year old immediately commented that they had been learning in history lessons how totalitarian regimes have used the excuse of an 'exceptional state of affairs'or 'national emergency' to withdraw democracy.

I also heard people saying that the people shouldn't have a referendum because they didn't understand the issues, maybe so but that is the rough and smooth of democracy.

Referendum vote for me too - definitely out of the EU asap.

Re: EEC Referendum

Gerry Henry — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:30:03 GMT

If I was an MP I'd be a UKIP MP so its a no brainer. Any organisation that can place not one but two Kinnocks is obviously good for nothing.