Axa insurance telling owners where to buy medicines from

Re: Axa insurance telling owners where to buy medicines from

Bob Russell — Wed, 02 Nov 2011 17:36:56 GMT

Just renewed my Tesco insurance policies for the dogs (cheap and cheerful!) and a little worrying, they advertise vetfone. 'get advice from a qualified RCVS veterinary nurse - it could save you the cost of an unnecessary trip to the vet'. Is this saying the VN is qualified to make a diagnosis and decide if a patient needs to be seen by a vet?

It also says 'vetfone can direct you to your nearest out of hours vet clinic'. Surely this should read will advise you to contact your own vets out of hours service?

They are all at it but I worry the VN's involved could get themselves into very hot water with the RCVS making these decisions.

Re: Axa insurance telling owners where to buy medicines from

Steve Johnson — Tue, 01 Nov 2011 22:05:43 GMT

I have spoken to the VMD about the purchasing of Advocate online without prescription and was told that the site involved is based in the Caribbean and run out of a PO Box in the UK...

VMD say they are powerless to help!!!

Client binned the lot upon being told this and now is only willing to buy direct from us.

Win some, lose some...

Re: Axa insurance telling owners where to buy medicines from

Clive Ansell — Fri, 28 Oct 2011 12:02:39 GMT

[quote user="Laurence Webb"]

Can you inform SPVS, Clive? We sent a copy of the letter from AXA to them and they are 'concerned' enough to be making representations towards AXA against this sort of behaviour.

[/quote]

Good idea, but this client is very anti vet and very pro Tesco insurance and will not show me the letter. We are all a load of money grabbing S****ers in her eyes (Tesco of course are not financially driven, and philanthropy is their main aim )

Re: Axa insurance telling owners where to buy medicines from

Bob Russell — Fri, 28 Oct 2011 11:44:46 GMT

The internet suppliers are pushing this 'multiple drugs prescription for six months'. I do not supply any client with six months medication at once (generally a month at a time) so would be discriminating against those buying from us if I were to write a six month prescription. As it is illegal to treat clients differently who request a written prescription I suspect this would be unlawful!

I do charge for prescriptions and will continue to do so. This has only been questioned once by a particularly opinionated client that I was quite happy to go to a competitor practice. They charge for prescriptions as well!

This nonsense has to be tackled by someone. Really it should be the BVA IMO but if SPVS are going to deal with it, good on 'em.

Re: Axa insurance telling owners where to buy medicines from

Laurence Webb — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 23:07:46 GMT

Can you inform SPVS, Clive? We sent a copy of the letter from AXA to them and they are 'concerned' enough to be making representations towards AXA against this sort of behaviour.

Re: Axa insurance telling owners where to buy medicines from

Clive Ansell — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 19:12:02 GMT

Going back to the OP, I have had a stroppy client this week who has been advised by Tesco insurance that she can 1)probably find drugs cheaper on the internet 2) demand a prescription for 6 months supply at once and 3) not have to pay a prescription fee.

The case is one of newly diagnosed Addison's and although much improved bloods still show an electrolyte imbalance, so I am only prepared to prescribe for a maximum of a month before retesting in 2-3 weeks. I certainly would not sign off for 6 months.

Re: Axa insurance telling owners where to buy medicines from

Bob Russell — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 16:28:36 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

£99 for life - better the extra money in the bank now, at the same time make sure there are so many loopholes that most clients will fall along the way-side!

Someone has taken a gamble on this one!

[/quote]

I believe I am still a member of a respected profession, who does a decent job for a reasonable cost for clients who respect me. The day I start £99 vaccine for life or similar gimics is the day I realise I have descended to the level of ambulance chasing no win-no fee lawyers and will retire.

[/quote]

I agree! The only way £99 for life can work is by owners paying up front and not using the service. The gamble they have taken is between some money now or possibly more later.

A gimmick and advertising stunt or a chance to get them to the surgery with the specific intention to sell them other thing! Sad.

Re: Axa insurance telling owners where to buy medicines from

Tanya Fielding — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 16:19:17 GMT

dont know about prescription fees but my insurance form to say I was unable to work was £40 12 years ago and I fill out insurance forms for free!

Re: Axa insurance telling owners where to buy medicines from

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 16:10:59 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

£99 for life - better the extra money in the bank now, at the same time make sure there are so many loopholes that most clients will fall along the way-side!

Someone has taken a gamble on this one!

[/quote]

Re: Axa insurance telling owners where to buy medicines from

Bob Russell — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 10:50:14 GMT

£99 for life - better the extra money in the bank now, at the same time make sure there are so many loopholes that most clients will fall along the way-side!

Someone has taken a gamble on this one!

Re: Axa insurance telling owners where to buy medicines from

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 10:09:10 GMT

Do you really want the clients who would come for a £99 for life vaccination offer ? I certainly don't

Either:

a) they will come back every year because it's free, so you will be out of pocket, and since they are money-orientated they'll give you the sress of their complaints when you charge over the odds for something else-which you will have to do to break even

b) they won't come back for boosters, so they willbe unlikely to comply with your other instructions either-so you will have the unnecessary stress of animals not getting better, and you not knowing why, untilyou realise it's because you have disobedient clients

Either way those clients are bad news

Wynne

Re: Axa insurance telling owners where to buy medicines from

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 19:51:06 GMT

[quote user="amanda nicholls"]

With that arguement, could the same not be argued for practices (corporate and independent to clarify so that I don't offend anyone ;) )discounting vaccines?

[/quote]

For sure its a valid argument but there is a difference between subsidising neutering or vaccines and give-away prices which are clearly loss leaders. I don't believe for one minute someone who does £99 for life vaccine deals has one philanthropic thought in their minds. I don't do £39 spays for non-charitable clients, I do it to help the charities.

Re: Axa insurance telling owners where to buy medicines from

Amanda Nicholls — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 14:14:03 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="amanda nicholls"]

As for evidence you ask for - I have worked in many practices as a locum and cannot think of any that price neutering in the same way as any other surgical procedure or perhaps I am missing something here?

[/quote]

Agreed. But apart from operating a loss-leader policy on neutering I feel (hope) there is a degree of common sense philanthropy going on here - a lot more animals would remain un-neutered if we charged realistic prices that compared with non-routine surgical rates. Why otherwise am I prepared to charge charities £39 for a cat spay? Economically it makes no sense especially as I'm not likely to get anything else out of the owners, so its not even a loss-leader.

[/quote]

With that arguement, could the same not be argued for practices (corporate and independent to clarify so that I don't offend anyone ;) )discounting vaccines?

Re: Axa insurance telling owners where to buy medicines from

Laurence Webb — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 12:02:22 GMT

Presumably Axa are only looking at short term profits. Pet insurance is only a small part of their business and, I suspect, is a lot less profitable than most other areas of insurance. If fees increase so the total cost of veterinary care goes up I expect they will just raise premiums until they become off-putting to clients or pull entirely out of the pet insurance market.

What is more alarming is that AXA may be setting a precedent that other insurers could follow.

By a strange coincidence the client who sent this letter to us appeared on Monday morning after the dog fell off the bed and was 10/10 lame. They were about to leave on holiday so wanted the dog seen to ASAP. Seen within 10 minutes of arrival, examined, admitted, X-rayed, treated and ready to go in under 2 hours. It was a good opportunity to point out that income from drugs allows us to have facilities we do and treat for the price we do.

Re: Axa insurance telling owners where to buy medicines from

Bob Russell — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 11:07:14 GMT

There has always been a degree of 'cross-subsidy' for neutering. Even 25 years ago this was the case. Long before most owners would have considered shopping around.

Vaccinations were generally a good source of income, allowing this to happen. Now these are being aggressively discounted in some areas it means the lost income has to be recouped from other procedures together with cost savings.

Hopefully we will not get to the day when the only procedure that is profitable is the pyo at £1500!

AXA are in real danger of shooting themselves in the foot with these little tricks.

Re: Axa insurance telling owners where to buy medicines from

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 10:30:14 GMT

[quote user="amanda nicholls"]

[/quote]

Re: Axa insurance telling owners where to buy medicines from

Amanda Nicholls — Tue, 25 Oct 2011 22:00:30 GMT

[quote user="Colin Cameron"]

[quote user="amanda nicholls"]I disagree, most independent practices are also guilty of this.[/quote]

Where is your evidence of such practice going on. I really do find this accusation distasteful and a personal attack on my professional integrity and that of the vast majority of Vets in practice doing a decent honest job. Do you work for a corporate because it sounds like you do as you have a rather jaundiced view of independent practices.

[/quote]

I have my own 1 vet completely independent practice, I set it up almost 2 years ago and I am very happy with my current situation. I price my vaccines including the primary course as a 15 minute health check + vaccine, I have a price for microchipping which I discount by 20% if done under GA at the time of neutering, I have a price for a vet or nurse 6 month health check and I have prices for parasite treatments which are marked up 25% against the wholesaler list price to encourage owners to buy effective treatments from me.

I consider my pricing structure to be fair, I have worked in corporate practices and not liked having to explain to owners why a minor stich up under sedation costs twice as much as the neutering op last month or why 1 radiograh costs more than a Great Dane spay and this is why I decided not to have loss leaders when I opened my own practice.

A local practice advertises on their website a kitten package for £79.50, I would charge someone £141.10 for what they are including which makes it very difficult to explain to people who are calling around for prices. I do offer pet health plans which are discounted (approximately 10% off my normal fees with free nurse clinics and discounts on services) and offers a monthly budgeting option.

The result is we are a very small team, we pride ourselves on providing an excellent service as we can't/won't compete on price and we are growing slowly but attracting the type of client I like to work with.

Re: Axa insurance telling owners where to buy medicines from

SteveOwen — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 17:09:12 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

[quote user="SteveOwen"]My private consultant doesn't charge me for a prescription. I suppose he is happy enough with consultation fee. He writes the prescription during the consultation after all. Sorry, doesn't help with your justification to clients, but it's true.

[/quote]

But he is not charging £30 for a consultation! the time and cost for issuing your prescription will be built into his longer (and more costly) consultation. His hourly rate may not be that different to yours but if my private consultation with a specialist is anything to go by he will have set aside more than 10 minutes for the consultation. You are still paying for the prescription!

[/quote]

I'm not disagreeing with you Bob. Just answering the question honestly. Actually my private consultant charges £90 for a 30 min consultation - so roughly the same as your £30 consultation per hour, presuming you have 10 min appointments. Clearly, in a 30 minute appointment, there is time to write a presciption. In a 10 min appointment there is not. If it takes 10 minutes vet time to write a prescription - not unreasonable in my opinion - perhaps we should be charging £30?! Or else have 30 minute £90 appointments and not charge! Actually maybe my experience with a private consultant IS good argument when justifying our prescription charges after all!

Re: Axa insurance telling owners where to buy medicines from

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 12:39:42 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

For anyone interested in veterinary history-the Steele-Bodger fee report 50 years ago said we shouldn't be scared to charge proper professional fees for our knowledge instead of relying on drug mark-ups

Most of the profession still haven't listened

Wynne

[/quote]

This, in association with Amanda's earlier comment which some seem to have taken to exception to, gives me a great dilemma. I have adhered to this policy for many years and never been scared to charge sensibly but sadly the local independent practices near me (one in particular who is the source of much of my ranting on this forum) do run loss leader prices, more than the corporates, and then charge disproportionately more for procedures once they have a captive audience. I presently refuse to compromise my principles but it is hurting. The problem is how to educate the gullible clients into realising that this is their policy. There are small number who come back and then expect me to carry on charging them sensibly for emergencies when I've not had the custom for the routine stuff and can't seem to understand why I'm less than grateful to them. Sadly we're increasingly living in an age when people know the cost of everything but the value of nothing. However, I did have at least one new client last week who bought a puppy and the breeder told her to go to the independent vet up the road because he was cheap, she concluded that this may indicate that perhaps he wasn't that good - there is some hope after all.

Re: Axa insurance telling owners where to buy medicines from

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 11:04:38 GMT

Most of the profession still haven't listened

Wynne

Re: Axa insurance telling owners where to buy medicines from

Bob Russell — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 10:28:01 GMT

[quote user="Colin Cameron"]

[quote user="amanda nicholls"]I disagree, most independent practices are also guilty of this.[/quote]

Where is yopur evidence of such practice going on. I really do find this accusation distasteful and a personal attack on my professional integrity and that of the vast majority of Vets in practice doing a decent honest job. Do you work for a corporate because it sounds like you do as you have a rather jaundiced view of independant practices.

[/quote]

I agree. I have worked in a number of independent practices and found that they work hard, charge fairly (often undercharge). The move to 'menu driven' pricing has increased pricing in a lot of cases. Every procedure done, every item used is charged for including things that traditionally were built into surgery fees.

The 'corporates' are perhaps guilty of charging for every nut and bolt but I don't have a problem with this. I do worry about some of the extras being pushed aggressively. Someone on this site mentioned a routine cat spay that ended up being over £200 once all the 'bolt-on's' had been added!

I know there will be screams of 'it is not just the corporates!' but I have never seen this in any of the practices I have worked in.

No! Most independent practices are not guilty of this! If you are working in one then change it or leave. There are lots of very ethical practices out there!

Re: Axa insurance telling owners where to buy medicines from

Colin Cameron — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 09:50:32 GMT

[quote user="amanda nicholls"]I disagree, most independent practices are also guilty of this.[/quote]

Re: Axa insurance telling owners where to buy medicines from

Colin Cameron — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 09:40:18 GMT

[quote user="plantagenet"]A client told me they were buying advocate online without a prescription, he is going to pass on the details and I will follow it up with relish - but what will the penalty [/quote]

My understanding, from one such case here which I reported to VMD, is that these are from non EU based websites / companies who are untouchable but it is THE CUSTOMER who has broken the law by importing unlicenced drugs ( ie POM-V in UK). I was informed that the penalties can be as much as £5000 or 2 years at Her Majesty's Pleasure. My client duly warned and went off a tiny bit worried. One company has UK website, UK phone number and address which turns out to be an estate agents office in Surrey and another is Lloyds Band in Oxford street, which seem strange places to have a pharmacy! At the moment little can be done. The words drug control, Hell and handcart seem to go well together. Thoughts anyone?

Re: Axa insurance telling owners where to buy medicines from

Bob Russell — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 09:09:25 GMT

[/quote]

Re: Axa insurance telling owners where to buy medicines from

Gerry Henry — Sun, 23 Oct 2011 22:40:24 GMT

Approved practices, capped fees, all rpt meds online, logical way to go - oh, and all claims made online thereby reducing back room staffing by 90%