Veterinary Interprofessional learning survey.

Re: Veterinary Interprofessional learning survey.

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 10:53:25 GMT

My feelings are the exact opposite of Plantaganets Until Veterinary Nurse becomes a legally protected title,and abuses of lay staff routinely performing nurses tasks (as occurred on Panorama ) are clamped down on extremely severly, then they cannot be a profession

I regard RVNs and only RVNs as professionals, and all others as kennel men/maids

Wynne

Re: Veterinary Interprofessional learning survey.

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 10:43:21 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]How can you look at veterinary nurses interprofessionally, when they are paraprofessionals?[/quote]

The Anon account is for seeking advise from peers. It isn't for debating issues like this. I haven't deleted this post, because others have replied to the point raised.

Re: Veterinary Interprofessional learning survey.

plantagenet — Sun, 23 Oct 2011 18:36:06 GMT

Since when did being the member of a profession have anything to do with its being vocational.

I think you probably make a better vet and vet nurse if it is a calling but that it incidental.

I am worried that Vets and Vet Nurses are going to end up in conflict if the latter consider themselves to be in every way equal to vets and I still regret the orphan status of many absolutely wonderful unqualified, but very experienced, vet nurses - I feel rather strongly that they should be able to call themselves that too, because that's what they do.

Re: Veterinary Interprofessional learning survey.

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 22:12:02 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Thought for the evening: If vets developed certain emergency protocols for nurses to follow in case of emergency, could that be construed as "acting under the direction of a vet"? [/quote]

I raised that very point at one of those famous RCVS Question Time sessions and was told "I would very much hope that a nurse could do exactly that". But that was fifteen or twenty years ago.

Re: Veterinary Interprofessional learning survey.

Mark Hedberg — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 20:42:51 GMT

Short version, though - I suppose I wouldn't be any more comfortable leaving a vet nurse completely without direction/supervision than a vet nurse would feel being left without any direction/supervision.

This has nothing to do with any lack of trust in a nurse - just that if it's my patient, I feel responsible for the case.

Re: Veterinary Interprofessional learning survey.

Mark Hedberg — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 20:38:37 GMT

Oh, I see. Good point. I suppose in case of emergency I don't think anyone would blame a nurse for stopping acute bleeding with a pressure bandage or putting a blue dog in an oxygen cage, but with the caveat of "call the vet asap". (Which I imagine any sensible nurse would be doing.) Basically I would suggest "emergency situations where waiting for a vet would have fatal consequences" would be a time a nurse could act without the direction of a vet.

It's not a very satisfying answer, I agree with you in advance.

Thought for the evening: If vets developed certain emergency protocols for nurses to follow in case of emergency, could that be construed as "acting under the direction of a vet"? (I'm thinking of those times where a vet might be in surgery or on a visit or hurrying to the practice as quickly as they can.)

Re: Veterinary Interprofessional learning survey.

Tim Cheyne — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 19:44:41 GMT

An excellent explanation that is what I expected but not quite what I wanted, Obviously the Veterinary Surgeons Act (or whatever) reserves certain activities to qualified veterinarians but can a veterinary nurse act at any time completely without the direction of a veterinarian?

Tim.

Re: Veterinary Interprofessional learning survey.

Mark Hedberg — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 19:17:56 GMT

[quote user="Tim Cheyne"]

I would have thought that it did but then can a veterinary nurse work in any way in his or her right without the supervision and direction of a veterinarian?

Tim.

[/quote]

Physically? Absolutely yes! An experienced nurse can take the vet's clinical plan, and make it happen. Sort of like when a lieutenant (veterinarian) gives a battle plan (clinical plan) to a sergeant (nurse) and the sergeant makes it happen. A good officer knows to check back to make sure it's gone well (sooner if it's a new sergeant or new officer) but they don't need to hover - and a good nurse is an absolutely key part to maximum veterinary care for the pet.

Every nurse is supervised, but it doesn't mean we stand over their shoulder watching their every move. :)

edit: obviously surgery and diagnosis is the vet's job, but if the vet decides on treatment and supportive care, drug administration is often entrusted to nursing staff. And then the vet checks his patients periodically.

Re: Veterinary Interprofessional learning survey.

Tim Cheyne — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 19:13:16 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

How can you look at veterinary nurses interprofessionally, when they are paraprofessionals?

[/quote]

An interesting point; is veterinary nursing a profession in its own right? Does it fulfill the requirements of a formal qualification gained by training or apprenticeship and examination under the supervision of a regulatory body with disciplinary powers? I would have thought that it did but then can a veterinary nurse work in any way in his or her right without the supervision and direction of a veterinarian?

Tim.

Re: Veterinary Interprofessional learning survey.

Mark Hedberg — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 19:06:20 GMT

Well, veterinary nursing is a calling as well, isn't it? What do they do, if not a profession?

(PS: It's not exactly a controversial post - why anon?)

Re: Veterinary Interprofessional learning survey.

An On MRCVS — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 18:12:17 GMT

How can you look at veterinary nurses interprofessionally, when they are paraprofessionals?

Re: Veterinary Interprofessional learning survey.

Gvarley — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 17:56:14 GMT

Hello,

That's great - many thanks!

Georgie

Re: Veterinary Interprofessional learning survey.

Tim Cheyne — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 14:24:59 GMT

OK, Georgie. I have had another go by fudging my answer to question five although I have mixed feelings about whether this is helpful or not. Perhaps at least it will bring your request into prominence again in the forums.

Tim.

Re: Veterinary Interprofessional learning survey.

Gvarley — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 20:47:52 GMT

Dear Tim,

Thank you for your thoughts above they are very valuable as I know people have many differing opinions on this subject - so it's a great one to research!

I am sorry that you did not feel you could complete the survey. There are some hidden constraints to my project (mostly the time frame I have to complete it in but also another student is looking at vets working with paraprofessions!!)

However, our projects of course do and can over lap. I have tried to encompass later in my survey a few questions asking opinions on working with paraprofessionals, because I feel as you do (despite my current lack of experience) but built on knowledge from seeing practice plus being an owner myself, I very much agree that vets and vet nurses gain huge benefit from working with other professionals. You give some great examples that people have shared in the survey for being useful to learn from and with.

I hope I have explained a little further into my project. Any opinions are extremely valuable for my research - always great to discuss!

Thanks for your thoughts Tim

Best wishes, Georgie

Re: Veterinary Interprofessional learning survey.

Tim Cheyne — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 15:55:44 GMT

Full of good intentions I started on the survey but found it was not for me. Being so long in the tooth and having had such a varied career I could not get beyond question five, "What sort of practice do you see?". Also the survey seems more intra-professional than inter-professional. Certainly there are benefits in sharing experiences with other veterinarians and veterinary nurses but such relationships can be very inward looking. I feel that I have derived most benefit from working with other professionals outside the veterinary profession; medical clinicians and pathologists, laboratory technicians, biochemists, pharmacists and agriculturalists. Sorry if that sounds churlish, Georgie, because I wish you luck with the survey and I hope that it turns out well.

Tim..

Re: Veterinary Interprofessional learning survey.

Shazzarazza — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 15:16:41 GMT

done