Should I use these vaccines?

Re: Should I use these vaccines?

katja wagner — Sat, 05 Nov 2011 15:48:38 GMT

I gave you 5 stars for sticking to your guns even loosing clients if they dont like your vaccine protocoll!

This is the vaccine scheme i would like to use if i had the choice,but i dont(sighs)

katja, who doese not think you are a sad sod!

Re: Should I use these vaccines?

Rob Loxley — Fri, 04 Nov 2011 20:18:10 GMT

[quote user="Eamon McAllister"]In the past vaccines were delivered throughout the year by vans which had no refrigeration[/quote]

And some are still...

Re: Should I use these vaccines?

Laurence Webb — Fri, 04 Nov 2011 20:14:26 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Only 2 posts to go for the 1,000[/quote]Of course pontificating about your 998 previous posts brings you every closer to the magic 1000.

Don't waste your 1000th post on replying to this!

Re: Should I use these vaccines?

Claire Fisher — Fri, 04 Nov 2011 20:06:03 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

We now finish puppy vaccinations at 12+ weeks of age (despite never having an issue) but overall it does point to vaccines being an inexact science as far as individual protection is concerned and I would hate to introduce further 'unknown' factors such as over-temperature vaccines into the equation.

Very embarrassing to see I have posted over 2000 times so will back off a bit and let others catch up - I am clearly far too opinionated!

[/quote]

I have lost clients over this issue, I refuse to complete the vaccine course at less than 12 weeks and suggest a third a 16 (compulsory in Rotties).

Don't worry about being opinionated the world would not function without people who have an opinion on everything and are not prepared to express it. I've now realised I'm 3 off 1000 posts, see if I can make it today. What worries me is not that that I'm too opinionated but that I'm so quiet and clearly so sad that I have the time and the inclination to spend so much time on an on-line forum!

[/quote]

We've had vaccine breakdowns with 12 week finishes as well. We now offer 16 week vaccs to everyone.

Re: Should I use these vaccines?

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 04 Nov 2011 15:17:13 GMT

Whomsoever gave me 5 stars for my last post: was that for my stance on a 12 week vaccine finish or for admitting that I'm an opinionated forum goer with a sad life and too much time on my hands? I won't be offended if the later! Only 2 posts to go for the 1,000.

Re: Should I use these vaccines?

mariette asselbergs — Fri, 04 Nov 2011 14:10:32 GMT

Before writing the following i would like to say that I agree with the position that the client pays for a trusted vaccine, and therefore I would not use vaccines which have been outside their recommended temperature range. I would make them available for suitably informed charities for free, to be used ASAP.

ANow my contribution on 2 parts of the debate on this forum:

1. Tuberculin is a protein, not a vaccine. Therefor I think warming up of tuberculin up to room temperature will not affect its usability immediately. Longer storage at room temperature will probably reduce its shelflife.

2. I found documentation on one vaccine, human BCG vaccine, in Guidelines for injection of BCG vaccine SSI by the Statens Serum Institute, FAQ:

The manufacturer has advised that stability studies have shown that the loss of activity for BCG vaccines (a life vaccine ) is less than 2% if the vaccine were to be inadvertently stored at room temperature (approx 23C) for up to 48 hours. The long term stability following such storage has not been studied by the manufacturer.

This makes me think that most manufacturers would have studies done on how the vaccine behaves after a storage accident like that. Has anybody asked the dog and cat vaccine makers?

Re: Should I use these vaccines?

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 04 Nov 2011 10:27:27 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Very embarrassing to see I have posted over 2000 times so will back off a bit and let others catch up - I am clearly far too opinionated!

[/quote]

I have lost clients over this issue, I refuse to complete the vaccine course at less than 12 weeks and suggest a third a 16 (compulsory in Rotties).

Re: Should I use these vaccines?

Bob Russell — Fri, 04 Nov 2011 09:46:12 GMT

We have had two rabbits develop myxomatosis despite a vaccination history. One was done by the book and developed 'lumpy bunny syndrome' within three weeks of its six month vaccination. It looked pretty awful but remained well and survived, presumably to be immune for life. The other one was a few months late with its booster and developed classic myxomatosis symptoms. After talking to Intervet I gave it the benefit of the doubt and much to my amazement it also lived to tell the tale!

Very embarrassing to see I have posted over 2000 times so will back off a bit and let others catch up - I am clearly far too opinionated!

Re: Should I use these vaccines?

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 04 Nov 2011 09:19:11 GMT

After 35 years of vaccinating pets with vaccines that, especially in the past when refrigeration was not necessarily routine, may not have been stored at optimum temperature, I had my first known vaccine breakdown last week in a pet which had been vaccinated with an efficacious product according to a protocol recognised by the enlightened members of the profession, a rabbit which contracted myxomatosis 3 months post vaccination. (This does not include two dogs that got parvo at 5 months after completing their vaccine courses according to the manufacturer's protocol at 10 weeks even thoughthe vaccines had been stored perfectly)! I'm not sure if that answers the concerns of the OP. And yes the issues that the words in italics may raise are intended to be inflammatory.

Re: Should I use these vaccines?

plantagenet — Fri, 04 Nov 2011 09:18:50 GMT

didn't intend to post that twice.

Re: Should I use these vaccines?

plantagenet — Fri, 04 Nov 2011 09:17:13 GMT

Ok, so the fridge goes on the blink and you use the vaccine. The vaccine manafacturer has advised you to bin it.

Some months later a dog you have vaccinated gets parvo.

hmm, I do wonder what the VDS would say.

You have used a vaccine which you KNOW has not been stored incorrectly and MAY, therefore, be less efficacious than it should be.

Its not about feeling brave. Ultimately it is about taking someones money to protect their dog with a vaccine which you are not 100% sure has been stored/used/administered correctly.

You could ask the owner of course "here are 2 vaccines, this one may have warmed up and may not work as well as that one. I am charging the same for both, which one would you like?"

Re: Should I use these vaccines?

plantagenet — Fri, 04 Nov 2011 09:17:11 GMT

Ok, so the fridge goes on the blink and you use the vaccine. The vaccine manafacturer has advised you to bin it.

Some months later a dog you have vaccinated gets parvo.

hmm, I do wonder what the VDS would say.

You have used a vaccine which you KNOW has not been stored incorrectly and MAY, therefore, be less efficacious than it should be.

Its not about feeling brave. Ultimately it is about taking someones money to protect their dog with a vaccine which you are not 100% sure has been stored/used/administered correctly.

You could ask the owner of course "here are 2 vaccines, this one may have warmed up and may not work as well as that one. I am charging the same for both, which one would you like?"

Re: Should I use these vaccines?

David Mills — Fri, 04 Nov 2011 08:11:23 GMT

[quote user="plantagenet"]

[quote user="David Mills"]eitther view point - use or not use - is based on the same level of evidence. [/quote]

But not to use is to err on the side of safety and caution, if you use the vaccine and it does not work the consequences could be bad, whereas if you do not use them, the consequence is only financial and probably covered by insurance.

Plus the fact, I would suspect the VMD would prefer you not to use them and they would be footing the bill for negligence.

[/quote]

Hmmm. the negligence, however, would need some proof of cause-effect that vaccines warmed for an indeterminate time and to an indeterminate temperature would be inefficacious, and all other sources of error (correct dose, accurate injection, vaccine immunological efficacy, correct interval of dosing) were absent. Of the first of these requirements, we have, as yet no evidence. Mr Geddes has been conspicuous by his silence since questioned. I would want to see data before not using them. There is, anecdotally, data that appears to show the opposite is true for other vaccines and immunological producsts that even after 24 of warming or poor temperature control, still show efficacy (as mentioned above, how cold, for instance, is TB stuff kept by polystyrene? What a great mini-project that would be for an elective student - temperature of TB vials on arrival at veterinary practices around the UK versus rate of warming of TB vials from cold to room temperature).

Of course all opinions are valid, so I guess it just depends how brave one feels.

Re: Should I use these vaccines?

Fiona Gibson — Thu, 03 Nov 2011 11:46:47 GMT

Personally, I would let the Manufacturer ejudicate re whether the vaccines are still usable - and if the Manufacturer sits on the fence and won't commit, then I'd definitely play safe and bin the vaccines.

Re: Should I use these vaccines?

plantagenet — Tue, 01 Nov 2011 17:47:22 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]eitther view point - use or not use - is based on the same level of evidence. [/quote]

Plus the fact, I would suspect the VMD would prefer you not to use them and they would be footing the bill for negligence.

Re: Should I use these vaccines?

Richard Nolan — Tue, 01 Nov 2011 16:16:28 GMT

" Oxytocin in my car in the summer works despite sometimes topping 50°C. Never understood why that needs to go in the fridge. A prominent horse practice 7/8 years ago had horse vaccines kept in vets year round with no refrigeration. "

Lurking in the back of my mind is a Veterinary Defence Society case from years (10+?) ago of a vet who was sued (expensively) after an outbreak of flu in a vaccinated animal after it was admitted that the vaccine had been sitting in his car for several hours during a hot summers day before it was used. I may have mis-remembered but he may even have been struck off/suspended for it.

Re: Should I use these vaccines?

Alan Tevendale — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 13:17:18 GMT

I couldn't agree with you more Wren. I like most farm/mixed vets have used bottles of stuff that haven't been kept refridgerated as per data sheet. I'm just playing devils advocate really.

The tuberculin issue is something of concern. We regularly recieve packages of tuberculin that aren't marked as fridge items and on occasion have been known to sit on a desk over a weekend or have been in the post all weekend. These I am sure will be out of the temperature range. We enjoy phoning DEFRA to wind them up about it. Yet another example of DEFRA taking us further away from the ideal that they preach.

Re: Should I use these vaccines?

Wren — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 10:59:25 GMT

[quote user="Alan Tevendale"]

I'm not saying that I don't agree with the likelyhood that these vaccines/oxytocin will work perfectly well but we just don't have the factual data to back it up and if something did go wrong the client could easily lay the blame with the vet.

As to who pays for packaging - how do these items arrive from your wholesaler? Anything, other than tuberculin from DEFRA, we get arrives in some form of insulated packaging so there are no extra costs involved for the client.

[/quote]

Oxytocin seems particularly hardy - I recently used an out of date and possibly never refridgerated dose in a cow caesar and watched the uterus contract before my very eyes. I often wonder whether it really does need to be refridgerated at all?

The tuberculin issue worries me. As part of the whole TB test-contracting shebang there seems to be an inordinate amount of importance placed on quality assurance, part of which seems to be documentation of cold chain adherence for tuberculin. What is the point of pushing us to laboriously record that every vial has been kept at 0-6 degrees centigrade from the minute it enters our practice to when it travels to a farm to when is actually injected into the animal if the first part of this cold chain is missed out entirely by the very people that are insisting on its adherence?

Re: Should I use these vaccines?

David Mills — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 10:56:16 GMT

My question was for Mr Geddes, a representative of Virbac. They make vaccines. I was hoping he would have some objective evidence as to loss/no loss of efficacy of vaccines warmed to room temperature over a number of hours. If he is to quote SPCs at the OP then there should be something to back this up - otherwise eitther view point - use or not use - is based on the same level of evidence.

Re: Should I use these vaccines?

Alan Tevendale — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 08:13:16 GMT

Re: Should I use these vaccines?

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 01:09:45 GMT

[quote user="Alan Tevendale"]Any vaccines we sell to farmers are always carefully packaged to ensure they maintain their data sheet recommended temperature. Could we really sell them otherwise?[/quote]

How do you mean? Ice packs, cool boxes? Who pays for all that? In none of the practices I've worked or seen practice is vaccine anything than handed over the counter with a reminder to put it in the fridge once they get home. We do give out the large polystyrene boxes with some Toxovax or we'd be stuck with them. Pfizer had some small cool boxes but not enough for everyone who comes in for a box of Scabivax!

[quote user="Alan Tevendale"]Have you any data to back up no loss in efficacy of vaccines sat in the sun?[/quote]

Oxytocin in my car in the summer works despite sometimes topping 50°C. Never understood why that needs to go in the fridge. A prominent horse practice 7/8 years ago had horse vaccines kept in vets year round with no refrigeration.

Re: Should I use these vaccines?

Alan Tevendale — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 00:40:31 GMT

Have you any data to back up no loss in efficacy of vaccines sat in the sun?

Any vaccines we sell to farmers are always carefully packaged to ensure they maintain their data sheet recommended temperature. Could we really sell them otherwise?

Re: Should I use these vaccines?

David Mills — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 00:31:02 GMT

[quote user="Chris Geddes"]

SPC says should be kept between 2 and 8 degrees C, so you are obliged to ensure this.

[/quote]

at all times? LA vaccines aren't. A farmer going through a herd of heifers to lungworm or bvd them will often have them nicely sat in the sun for hours with no drop in efficacy. Any data to back this up?

Send them to us, quid a pop.

Re: Should I use these vaccines?

Bob Russell — Thu, 20 Oct 2011 13:57:49 GMT

[quote user="Chris Geddes"]

If you don't have a temperature logger, don't use! Regardless of likelihood of efficacy or otherwise, SPC says should be kept between 2 and 8 degrees C, so you are obliged to ensure this. If you had a vaccine failure, you would be responsible if you hadn't kept them between these temperatures. Dispose and claim on insurance. And preferably get a temperature logger for next time :)

Chris

[/quote]

I am afraid I would agree with the 'don't use them' brigade'! Apart from the legal and efficacy side of things how would this make you compare to the man with a white van arriving at breeders touting cheap vaccines for sale?

Re: Should I use these vaccines?

Chris Geddes — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 18:25:22 GMT

Chris