Anyone for council?

Re: Anyone for council?

Martin Jones — Thu, 13 Oct 2011 19:46:09 GMT

[quote user="Richard Stephenson"]

sometimes more for Council especially if you intend to speak as it is a harsh forum and poorly thought through arguments are quickly exposed

[/quote]

And there's a central problem. It's clear that there's an underlying entrenchment of attitudes and inertia there: why does it need to be a harsh forum? Why should anybody be put off coming to the table with an idea? It might turn out to be half @rsed, but as a challenge to prevailing opinions, and an educational experience for the proponent, it might just open up the debate and start some fresh thinking. If you're openly aware of council as an intimidating forum, shouldn't it be challenged? And who makes it harsh? Which of our elected council members - there to serve the interests of the profession - are making it an uncomfortable arena in which to express oneself?

I'm not seeking to blast you personally, Richard. I know not of what you are made, but I value the opinions of peers on the forum, and you're clearly highly thought of. But if even you are describing council as a harsh forum, that system needs to be changed, as it's clear that politicking and positioning are more important than stimulating discussion. For further examples of how this kind of system can impact on freedom of expression and diversity of thinking, see the past few days on vetsurgeondot org......

Re: Anyone for council?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 13 Oct 2011 17:56:36 GMT

Thats 5 weeks a year on RCVS business-quite a commitment-and I believe it can get considerably more onerous than that

Wynne

Re: Anyone for council?

Richard Stephenson — Thu, 13 Oct 2011 16:57:33 GMT

Dear All,

Thanks for the positive comments - as I shall be one of the RCVS Councillors up for election this coming year it is encouraging - should I decide to stand again - which I suspect I will.

This is an interesting thread. Being a member of Council certainly represents a big time committment. In my first three full years on Council I've spent 74 days on RCVS business i.e. just about 25 per year. I would say that for each day at Belgravia House you need at least two days to read all the material you have to and prepare for meetings (sometimes more for Council especially if you intend to speak as it is a harsh forum and poorly thought through arguments are quickly exposed)- obviously this can be done 'in your own time' and need not interfere with work.

Is it worth it? Sometimes being a member of Council is thoroughly depressing and I've lost numerous nights' sleep worrying about it - however it is also extremely interesting, stimulating and at times fun! There are some real characters on Council and occasionally we do hear profound arguments and make good decisions (but not always).

I strongly suspect that this year not all the retiring members will be standing again and that there will be 'vacancies' so it might be a good year for new blood to stand. A few new faces every year does no one any harm.

One frustration can be the difficulty members of the DC and PIC face in participating in debates and discussions. One constantly has to watch what one says just in case it impacts on an impending (or past) case. This may be why some members of Council seem as if they don't do very much - I can assure you that all those on the DC are putting in an enormous committment to the RCVS every year - so please keep that in mind when you put your X in the box!!

I would be happy to talk to anyone who wants to stand further off forum (mobile 07966649402) - as one of my main aims for my first term of office was to encourage more participation both in terms of voter turnout and candidates - clearly we have some way to go on both.

Best wishes,

Richard Stephenson.

Member of RCVS Council (at least for another 12 months yet!!)

Re: Anyone for council?

Martin Jones — Thu, 13 Oct 2011 11:01:39 GMT

And while I'm at it, if the RCVS actually worked to lobby for change and bring common sense into both the cascade system and, by extension, retrospective licensing of historically-adopted generic drugs, it would do more to promote patient care and public confidence in the profession than rounding up all the cowboys there have ever been........

I really should be painting the bathroom floor right now.

Re: Anyone for council?

Martin Jones — Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:56:53 GMT

Problem is, Wynne, that most regulators operate the same way: the definition of remit is used as a tool to reduce responsibilities - as in, ooh, we'd love to help, but it's outside of our remit.

What should happen is that the RCVS say, 'well, that's outside of our remit - but as it affects our members, the way that they work and, ultimately, the end-users who we openly vow to protect, we'll take it up anyway. And then work to change the remit'.

And what are the chances of that happening, when there are still new ways to be thought up for nailing MRCVSs to the floor?

Re: Anyone for council?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:36:04 GMT

Historically RCVS was both a disciplinary and COLLEGIATE body-and one of it's COLLEGIATE functions was acting as a source of INFORMED opinion, so it would be perfectly proper for it to lobby on this issue

Wynne

Re: Anyone for council?

Martin Jones — Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:29:56 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

Do you think Sainsbury's has its own cornflakes factory???

[/quote]

No. But Sainsbury's put a tender out for the cheapest cornflake manufacturer and then pass the savings onto customers; what they don't do is to repackage the cheap drug cornflakes, sell them for an inflated profit and then threaten a criminal record on anybody who tries to buy another brand of the same product. That, in the cornflake world, would be restrictive practice.

On the other hand, if Sainsbury's invented cornflakes, they would be perfectly entitled to patent them and charge a pound a flake. That's not restrictive, that's protecting investment. There's a big difference.

So, with the former scenario, what would stop a bunch of vets consumers getting their official body (called, say, the Register of Consumers of Vegetable Snacks, or RCVS) to put their foot down against blatant profiteering, so that nobody needed to be hung out to dry as an individual? Unless, of course, that body was primarily directed towards protecting the rest of the world from its own members, rather than helping to promote their well-being.

I agree, good analogy.

Re: Anyone for council?

Tim Mainland — Thu, 13 Oct 2011 09:18:45 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]This way at least some real action would take place![/quote]

And the price would triple for the same information available from some/most/all licenced holders of the same drug.

The corn flakes analogy holds I think;

[/quote ] It's time that the regulatory powers accepted that if x is renamed as y then x=y and they can simply cut n paste x's licence and give it to y. Like I said before, simple chemistry. But we digress - where's this mythical candidate?

Re: Anyone for council?

Anthony Todd — Thu, 13 Oct 2011 08:22:55 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]This way at least some real action would take place![/quote]

And the price would triple for the same information available from some/most/all licenced holders of the same drug.

The corn flakes analogy holds I think;

Re: Anyone for council?

Mark Hedberg — Thu, 13 Oct 2011 07:44:42 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Can the RCVS commission bioavailability studies to show generics are equal to licensed drugs? This could then open the gates to having generics approved, couldn't it?[/quote]

Yeah but most, if not all, of the "licensed" veterinary generics are just rebranded, coloured or not even that, human generics anyway, so you'll be doing bioavailability studies on the exact same drug that has a VPOM.

Even in the medical field some drugs are made by one company in the world and bought and rebranded by many others.

Do you think Sainsbury's has its own cornflakes factory???

[/quote]

Of course i understand they're the same, but without a stack of paper to beat the politicians over the head with, all we are doing is whinging over a stupid law! This way at least some real action would take place!

Re: Anyone for council?

Anthony Todd — Thu, 13 Oct 2011 05:09:47 GMT

Even in the medical field some drugs are made by one company in the world and bought and rebranded by many others.

Do you think Sainsbury's has its own cornflakes factory???

Re: Anyone for council?

Anthony Todd — Thu, 13 Oct 2011 05:00:25 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]It's better tohave a manifesto on things Royal College CAN alter[/quote]

But have they even tried?

Were they consulted initially? What did they say, if anything?

Where and when did the VMD fit into the cascade [see other thread]?

And to say that the RCVS can't change the cascade, so therefore do nothing, is disappointing in the extreme.

Re: Anyone for council?

Niall Taylor — Wed, 12 Oct 2011 17:19:40 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

Has anyone heard the one about RCVS no longer awarding VN qualifications:

"..The RCVS Veterinary Nurses Council has recommended that the RCVS should cease being an awarding body next year, which means it will no longer offer the vocational Level 3 Diploma in Veterinary Nursing..."

RCVS waking up - where's the Councillor comment?

JGW

[/quote]

It's here - http://www.vetsurgeon.org/forums/t/9525.aspx where I'm currently in conversation with Jill Nute who actually started a thread off her own back, it's just that the 2 originals were merged into one so it looks like I started it. We are having a sensible civillised discussion and I'm learning stuff - there's a novely for this place of late

Niall

Re: Anyone for council?

J G Wray — Wed, 12 Oct 2011 16:28:15 GMT

Has anyone heard the one about RCVS no longer awarding VN qualifications:

RCVS waking up - where's the Councillor comment?

JGW

Re: Anyone for council?

J G Wray — Wed, 12 Oct 2011 16:24:49 GMT

[quote user="Tim Mainland"]Bit harsh that last bit JWray.[/quote]

Oh I dunno. When did you last hear from

Mrs Nute

Mr Catlow

Mr Gray

Mrs Molyneux

Col Smith

Mr Tufnell

eh?

They've all used this forum for election purposes. Used it then, well, what?

JGW

Re: Anyone for council?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 12 Oct 2011 16:12:20 GMT

Richard Stephenson is one of the Councillors I rate highly I'm not going through a list of those I rate,or the others willknow exactly what I think of them-some have probably already guessed !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fair enough to have LOBBYING to drcriminalise the cascade on a manifesto-as long as it's made plain that RCVS can only lobby not alter of its own accord

Wynne

Re: Anyone for council?

Tim Mainland — Wed, 12 Oct 2011 16:06:47 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Tim Mainland"]If you join Yahoo groups, then join the MRCVS group, it is open to all M'sRCVS. And the said councillor puts his notes out through that group. The last one was in early June. Obviously it is his own version of the meeting. [/quote]

Mr Stephenson has been persuaded to write his recollections up in veterinary newspapers and I believe has discussed them on this list.

What's unusual is that they are reportage rather than minutes.

It takes a great effort to do this.

Incidentally, some of you may remember that the RCVS set up a small group to look at their ahem "overspends". The report is due shortly, first to a RCVS Committee then to Council. Without someone like Mr Stephenson to report on this we will never find out what has been investigated. This from the transparent RCVS

There are plenty of Councillors who are on this list who have solicited votes from Ms RCVS vowing to use common sense, be approachable, transparent, anything that gets them elected really. The public interest is served by transparency. The profession's interest is served by transparency. It is only the RCVS' interest which may not served by transparency. So, all those Councillors who have used this list as a vehicle for election are marked out for their self interest. Their silence is deafening.

JGW

[/quote] Bit harsh that last bit JWray. You pointed out the amount of effort Mr Stephenson expends on his reportage. Being a councillor takes a lot of effort and Mr S is of the best. But trawling the forums, here and now in several other places would take huge effort for the busy kind of people we need. Have a go - but be fair! Dead messengers are no use to us.

Re: Anyone for council?

J G Wray — Wed, 12 Oct 2011 15:51:12 GMT

Mr Stephenson has been persuaded to write his recollections up in veterinary newspapers and I believe has discussed them on this list.

What's unusual is that they are reportage rather than minutes.

It takes a great effort to do this.

JGW

Re: Anyone for council?

Tim Mainland — Wed, 12 Oct 2011 11:44:26 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

But Anthony and Tim We ALL hate the cascade-the problem with putting it on the manifesto is that RCVS is powerless to alter it. If someone intends standing for the next EEC elections, then by all means put it on the manifesto. The EEC can alter this LAW they made it in the 1st place.RCVS can't-the most they can do is turn a blind eye to any transgressions

It's better tohave a manifesto on things Royal College CAN alter

Wynne

Wynne,

I obviously take your point. But subsequent postings have shown that RCVS can be expected to take action and put pressure on in the right direction. We need them to have a view which corresponds with our own - at the coalface - and then do everything within their power to make something happen. Even if that means dealing with something tangentially, or through other agencies. They do have clout!

[/quote]

Re: Anyone for council?

Tim Mainland — Wed, 12 Oct 2011 11:40:35 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Tim Mainland"]There are a small number of excellent RCVS councillors, including one who regularly publishes, in another place, his own record of council meetings.[/quote]

Can you provide a link or respectfully ask if the publications can be on this forum too.

[/quote]

Anthony

If you join Yahoo groups, then join the MRCVS group, it is open to all M'sRCVS. And the said councillor puts his notes out through that group. The last one was in early June. Obviously it is his own version of the meeting.

Re: Anyone for council?

Mark Hedberg — Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:57:26 GMT

Can the RCVS commission bioavailability studies to show generics are equal to licensed drugs? This could then open the gates to having generics approved, couldn't it?

Re: Anyone for council?

Bob Russell — Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:55:12 GMT

Regrettably the RCVS were pathetically weak in the defense of common sense. Clearly so were the BVA, BSAVA etc. MEP's are clearly not interested in changing anything, presumably because they are busy queuing to collect their allowances and feathering their own nests.

Nothing is going to change unless we universally decide to take action and where we feel it is justified even on economic grounds start to use generics. I would be surprised if the profession (hardly renowned for militancy!) is going to do this in a united way.

I suspect there will be a great reluctance by the authorities to take this to court but I for one would help with legal fees for anyone challenged in court!

Re: Anyone for council?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:36:48 GMT

It's better tohave a manifesto on things Royal College CAN alter

Wynne

Re: Anyone for council?

Anthony Todd — Wed, 12 Oct 2011 00:52:33 GMT

[quote user="Tim Mainland"]There are a small number of excellent RCVS councillors, including one who regularly publishes, in another place, his own record of council meetings.[/quote]

Can you provide a link or respectfully ask if the publications can be on this forum too.

Re: Anyone for council?

Anthony Todd — Wed, 12 Oct 2011 00:50:53 GMT

[quote user="Tim Mainland"]the cascade is my pet hate[/quote]

Me too, mindblowingly ridiculous.

So can I add it to the Manifesto for the vetorg candidate??