The One Show Dog trainer

Re: The One Show Dog trainer

Mark Holmes — Wed, 28 Sep 2011 23:20:16 GMT

Our older dog was training a puppy to stay away from her bed today. She growled, then snapped at it. The puppy duly trained stayed away. Dogs don't use positive reinforcement.

Re: The One Show Dog trainer

plantagenet — Wed, 28 Sep 2011 09:07:05 GMT

We have 2 local 'experts' to whom we refer problem dogs. One is young, female, qualified to the hilt and always uses positive and reward based techniques. The second is elderly, male, no paper qualifications but done it for years, very old fashioned and strict (he does not hit). The results from the latter are astounding - including one dog who goes for other dogs, who was otherwise booked for a one-way trip to see me. The results from the former are mixed and, in some cases, hopeless. My own delinquent puppy went to the puppy class of the former, till I realised it was making him worse, he may well be going off for a stay with the latter!

Re: The One Show Dog trainer

Julian Earl — Tue, 27 Sep 2011 18:26:38 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]

...So my advise to owners with a bit scary or problematic dogs, is to take one command, can be "sit" or "down" or something like that, and keep on training that, so that in any problem situation you can go back to zero with "sit".

[/quote]

I agree. That is exactly what I advise when people are describing "difficult behaviour" in their dog - I just see it as necessary to make the dog do something else instead of the undesirable behaviour and reward it for so doing. The key is to make the new behaviour more rewarding than the unwanted one. You can dress it up in all sorts of ways no doubt, but it always boils down to this.

Re: The One Show Dog trainer

mariette asselbergs — Tue, 27 Sep 2011 17:41:09 GMT

What I liked in the program and certainly believe is a practical solution for problem behaviour in dogs, was how he showed that spending a lot of time to teach one effective command ("leave") was the basis for solving all the other problem behaviours. I did not experience it as the young man asserting his dominance, or him being aggressive and scaring the dog, what he did was creating a structure for the dog which allowed anybody afterwards to change any problem behaviour by getting back to start. Without having to confront the problem behaviour itself (like attacking the post or defending the bed). I interpreted the cowering behaviour of the dog near its food bowl much more as him being in conflict with himself, wanting to growl, but being driven to obey the command. He seemed more scared of his own forbidden impulses. At the end of the show he was lying there in a very relaxed way.

I see daily how high strung racing around sheepdogs at work on farms are basically controlled by "down". Stop what you're doing and now listen or look what I want you to do. As a teenager I had a dog I trained to come with me loose in busy city traffic, me on my bike, she on the pavement. My basic command which she responded to immediately was "stop". Since I could trust her to do that, everything else followed from stop.

So my advise to owners with a bit scary or problematic dogs, is to take one command, can be "sit" or "down" or something like that, and keep on training that, so that in any problem situation you can go back to zero with "sit".

Re: The One Show Dog trainer

Martin Jones — Mon, 26 Sep 2011 12:19:33 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]

[I'm assuming thats tongue in cheak? I had a good belting once or twice but do not consider it a negative feature of miy childhood in the slightest. I probably asked for it given that I would always have been given adequate warning that it was on the cards.

[/quote]

Are you talking back to me, young man? Ooh, just you wait till I get you home........

Re: The One Show Dog trainer

Pete Wedderburn — Mon, 26 Sep 2011 11:14:45 GMT

Apparently, the BBC press office has now released a statement; "The One Show has thanked viewers for all their comments and criticisms which were taken very seriously. Last night the show featured various differing opinions plus advice from The One Show's vet on the subject of dog training and care. There are currently no plans for this feature to return."

Re: The One Show Dog trainer

Mark Holmes — Mon, 26 Sep 2011 11:03:50 GMT

[quote user="Martin Jones"]And look at poor old Mark - we're all going to have to go easy on him now, knowing what sort of a childhood he had to endure[/quote]

I'm assuming thats tongue in cheak? I had a good belting once or twice but do not consider it a negative feature of miy childhood in the slightest. I probably asked for it given that I would always have been given adequate warning that it was on the cards.

Re: The One Show Dog trainer

Martin Jones — Mon, 26 Sep 2011 10:47:02 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

I was slapped occasionally and I turned out ok

[/quote]

Oh, really?

And look at poor old Mark - we're all going to have to go easy on him now, knowing what sort of a childhood he had to endure: some of these postings would really benefit from an 'Anon' marking, you know. I suspect it's just free therapy for a few, and comedy entertainment for the rest of us...

Re: The One Show Dog trainer

Martin Jones — Mon, 26 Sep 2011 10:41:52 GMT

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that in any human-animal interaction, the rights of the human not to be hurt generally outweigh all the rights of the animal (with the singular exception of toad-like children who pull the limbs off Daddy Long Legs). This needs to be borne in mind when showing off our newly acquired CPD training and recommending any interaction with a potentially dangerous dog.

Also that anybody who goes on telly thinking they're an expert is going to be pulled apart by lesser authorities, partly at least out of childish envy. This trainer may or may not be a waste of space, but like the rest of the nation, I stopped watching the One Show after Adrian Chiles left - so the damage done should be quite limited.

[quote user="Anne Seawright"]

As veterinary professionals we should be advocating methods that are scientifically proven, welfare friendly and efficacious in terms of long term outcome by ensuring that owners are referred to professionals with appropriate qualifications and experience in animal training and behaviour modification.

[/quote]

Beautifully simplistic and suitably vague. Would you be a '[professional] with appropriate qualifications and experience in animal training and behaviour modification' by any chance, Anne?

And, as some wags on here have suggested, euthanasia is a welfare-friendly solution to many conditions. Putting aggressive dogs to sleep would appear to fit the criteria of 'scientifically proven, welfare friendly and efficacious in terms of long term outcome' well enough, and as it's generally performed by us, then 'professionals with appropriate qualifications and experience' are involved.

So, if I have you correct, a good solution for these dogs is euthanasia. Far better the occasional clip across the earhole, surely?

What has become apparent over the years is that, aside from post-rescue situations, decent owners uncommonly have appalling dogs. The major exception is those that failed to socialise properly in the early months, often out of a well-motivated desire to spend as much time with the dog as possible. Those that do make it to a dog behaviourist are usually, by default, going to be decent owners.

The overwhelming majority of dog behaviour issues, though, lies with people who aren't that great, and who really aren't ever going to do much about it - the ones that bring a snapping, snarling mess into the surgery for pre-kenneling vaccinations, or isolated medical 'emergencies'. They will never, ever change and often don't realise their issues until it's far too late. Arguing about dominance theory and positive vs negative reinforcement is really just quibbling about the same side of the same coin: you're trying in any case to fit a one-size solution to a complex set of situations, which in themselves only make up a tiny proportion of the global issues.

I'm old enough to remember eggs being good for us, then bad, then good again, then very, very bad indeed (thanks, Edwina). Then good for a bit, and I must confess, I've largely lost interest since keeping my own chickens in any case. I suspect Dominance Theory is a bit like eggs (certainly the curate's version, to push the analogy): at some point, we'll all be beating them with a rolled up newspaper again. But scientifically, and as EBM.

I may even apply for a research grant

Re: The One Show Dog trainer

Kate Richardson — Sun, 25 Sep 2011 17:45:35 GMT

[quote user="Pete Wedderburn"]First, when advice is demonstrated on a prime time television programme, there's an implicit suggestion that it's the right way to do things. Yet if many, less confident and able people tried to do what the dog trainer did, they could easily end up being bitten, and the dog subsequently euthanased.[/quote]

I've not seen the show but this is the concern. I'm not advocating this method above others; it sounds as though it would be effective in selected cases. And that's the point. A professional needs to decide what the best method is to use when dealing with a behavioural issue, whether it's a softly softly approach, a reward based approach or a punishment approach. There are dominant dogs out there that need to be dominated, just like in nature. But choose the wrong method and it could be a disaster. And the public aren't trained to decide which method should be used.

Re: The One Show Dog trainer

Mark Holmes — Sun, 25 Sep 2011 12:02:37 GMT

What's wrong with smacking children occasionally? I know one of the things that kept me on the old straight and narrow was an abject terror of my mother. I knew all the dangers of smoking but the thing that stopped me was knowing I would have my hide skinned if I had been caught. There is nothing more fear inducing than a cold thrashing. That's not a slap in anger. That's "when we get home I'm taking the belt to you" and knowing it will be carried out. The thing is it probably only happened twice. I was well behaved, respectful, I did as I was told and if I stepped out if line a hiss from my mother was enough to bring me back. All four of us were well loved and happy. Discipline is not abuse and is less harmful than disrespect and unruliness.

Re: The One Show Dog trainer

Julian Earl — Sat, 24 Sep 2011 11:22:50 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

C'mon, training dogs is not that hard. Our little dog came from a gamekeeper, had lived as a pack dog and had to fight for everything. She'd about take your fingers off if you offered her food, possessive of her bowl etc. We'd had her a few days and she needed eye drops, she went to bite me. Tap on the nose and told very firmly 'NO' - same with the unacceptable behaviour with food. She's an angel now. She's not full of pent up aggression, not going to rip my throat out as I sleep. She's as good as gold. Good old fashioned constant approach with both reward for good behaviour and discipline for bad behaviour. (I bet you are against smacking children - I was slapped occasionally and I turned out ok).

You don't need research to prove it work because it has done forever! The dogs that we see with behaviour/aggression problem as the ones where the owner isn't the boss. I defy you to find me a better trained dog than many of the working Labrador/spaniels. They hardly break eye contact with their 'boss' waiting for an instruction. They are so willing to please and just so easy to examine/treat.

[/quote]

I agree with this up to a point. To a certain extent, do we not have a case here of the ends justifying the means? I am not convinced that this dog will necessarily go straight to biting instead of warning via the growling and if it doesn't - if - then the dog will behave better. I don't think that the precise method of "pushing the dog away with the foot" was a good demonstration of dog training, but the principle of making the dog wait and obey was fine as far as I am concerned. As it was, that JRT was the polar opposite of what I want from a pet - my idea is to have a playful, friendly dog that is completely trustworthy and I would never keep a dog behaving in that terrible way.

Also, whilst I would not condone smacking children or pets, I confess to having a snapping puppy in for vaccinations on one occasion soon after I was qualified, and (shamefully?) lost my temper when the owners were doing b*gg£r all to control it and smacked the puppy on top of its head. The owner immediatelycomplained to me, but then acknowledged that the puppy never ever snapped again. So it can work it would appear.

Re: The One Show Dog trainer

Bob Russell — Sat, 24 Sep 2011 10:14:42 GMT

Has nobody seen pack behaviour? There is a lot of noise, a lot of intimidation especially towards the 'top of the pile'. Real injuries are inflicted although the majority of these scraps are more noise than damage.

I find that dominance does not need violence to assert. The right look will generally get the kids behaving better (not always!) and I cannot remember hitting any of them!!!

One specific look can get the dogs lying down and submitting! Leader of a pack? Yup! Violent? Nope!

Self-trained or untrained people on TV correcting bad behaviour in children or pets is a dangerous thing but there are many ways to successfully skin a cat!

Re: The One Show Dog trainer

Louise6732 — Sat, 24 Sep 2011 07:53:45 GMT

[quote user="Anne Seawright"]intimidation (or dominating or whatever you want to call it) merely suppresses the behaviour rather than addressing the underlying causes, ultimately leading to further problems in the future. [/quote]

Re: The One Show Dog trainer

Mark Holmes — Sat, 24 Sep 2011 07:20:28 GMT

Thanks Michael I thought I must be the only one reading this thinking what a load of cobblers. I am no Dr Doolittle but I watch how animals communicate and follow their lead. That Jack Russell was using negative reinforcement to protect it's food. My dog is well trained, on the back of positive and negative reward as are my children. I don't feel threatened by either. She did however try to bite me once (10 years ago) and understood the negative reinforcement I employed. It hasn't happened since.

Re: The One Show Dog trainer

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 23:07:16 GMT

[quote user="Anne Seawright"]Even if you cannot see that the welfare of the individual dog in the clip was unnecessarily compromised[/quote]

Yea, we do that all the time. Are the dogs we kennel every day able to exhibit normal behaviour? We compromise their welfare subjecting them to surgical procedures they can't consent to. Domestication compromises their welfare.

[quote user="Anne Seawright"] Research has shown that 59% of dog bites occur when people are attempting to ‘discipline’ dogs.[/quote]

This took 'research'?

[quote user="Anne Seawright"]As veterinary professionals we should be advocating methods that are scientifically proven, welfare friendly and efficacious in terms of long term outcome by ensuring that owners are referred to professionals with appropriate qualifications and experience in animal training and behaviour modification.[/quote]

Ought you declare a vested interest here?

Re: The One Show Dog trainer

Anne Seawright — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 22:37:18 GMT

I disagree that it is a mountain out of a mole hill. Even if you cannot see that the welfare of the individual dog in the clip was unnecessarily compromised, then you should at least recognise the potential implications of such techniques being shown by a professed 'doggie expert' on a prime time TV show. Owners will copy, they will get bitten and dogs will suffer as a result.

Whilst it may appear that the methods shown worked to 'cure' the problem, intimidation (or dominating or whatever you want to call it) merely suppresses the behaviour rather than addressing the underlying causes, ultimately leading to further problems in the future. Punishment, of any description, is entirely inappropriate for any aggression, and indeed any behaviour that involves anxiety or fear. For example, the dog from the show is still fearful, and likely more fearful, of people approaching the food bowl. However, it has been taught, through 45 minutes of intimidation, that growling at people does not work to get them to move away, so the next time a person approaches the food bowl and the dog's fear levels increase, it will no longer growl, it will go straight to bite. Not only do these techniques potentially make the behaviour problem worse in the long run, they are dangerous to do. Research has shown that 59% of dog bites occur when people are attempting to 'discipline' dogs.

Re: The One Show Dog trainer

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 19:25:32 GMT

[quote user="Pete Wedderburn"]Or do we just accept that it's only entertainment,[/quote]

Like all television, it's only entertainment.

Re: The One Show Dog trainer

Pete Wedderburn — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 07:34:24 GMT

I can understand what you mean - there are plenty of far bigger issues to get concerned about - but still, I do see two problems going on here:

First, when advice is demonstrated on a prime time television programme, there's an implicit suggestion that it's the right way to do things. Yet if many, less confident and able people tried to do what the dog trainer did, they could easily end up being bitten, and the dog subsequently euthanased.

Second, how should our public service broadcaster select "experts"? Should it be left to personal connections? Surely there's some responsibility to offer a platform to people who've had appropriate training and experience? Or do we just accept that it's only entertainment, and anything is acceptable?

Pete

Re: The One Show Dog trainer

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 22 Sep 2011 23:27:20 GMT

Some people do make mountains out of mole hills. If it works where's the problem? The dog wasn't injured. It's all nice and dandy saying we should only use 'reward based training' but not especially appropriate the next time you have a kennel guarding GSD. Sometimes the only way is to dominate the dog (I'm not advocating a good beating, just being firm).

Re: The One Show Dog trainer

Joyce Whitehead — Thu, 22 Sep 2011 21:31:31 GMT

I didn't see the original programme, only the clips, but certainly didn't agree with the methods used. I noticed when I did catch some of this tonight though that at the end of his segment, Matt Baker pointed out that they should not have described this man as the "One Show dog trainer", rather that they were just "following his work".

Possibly a bit of back tracking going on there? Tonight's case study seemed to be an undersocialised Staffie aggressive with other dogs, which he "treated" by mixing it with his dogs for some weeks. Perfectly acceptable treatment, but how much did the owner pay I wonder?

I do feel it is a good plug for this chap's business, which less knowledgeable owners may go for...

Re: The One Show Dog trainer

Pete Wedderburn — Thu, 22 Sep 2011 19:45:17 GMT

I've been watching this issue develop through the day, and if you read my Vet Surgeon blog on this, you'll find a bit more of the background to the new 21 year old dog trainer that hasn't been fully aired in the national media yet. See here http://www.vetsurgeon.org/blogs/pete-wedderburn/archive/2011/09/22/a-disgrace-dog-training-on-the-bbc-s-one-show.aspx

I think this is going to rumble on for some time........

Pete