Leaky forums

Re: Leaky forums

Niall Taylor — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 18:56:50 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Thanks Bob and Mark, I really do appreciate the sentiment. [/quote]

Don't worry, we'll look after the place - get some well deserved rest (if that is possible, I hope things have settled down somewhat).

Niall

Re: Leaky forums

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 18:44:27 GMT

Thanks Bob and Mark, I really do appreciate the sentiment.

Re: Leaky forums

Bob Russell — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 18:09:05 GMT

Best of luck - hope you all get a better nights sleep tonight. The woes of VetSurgeon can safely be put on the back burner for the weekend. I hate to say it we will still be here next week (hopefully)!!

Re: Leaky forums

Mark Holmes — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 17:40:21 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

And unbeknownst to his clientele, the landlord is feeling pretty ragged today, after being on duty through a six-seizure night last night. No sleep. Eyelids on matchsticks.

[/quote]

That sounds horrible, truely horrible. In fact I cannot imagine (and would rather not try to) how you cope with it. Its Friday, get some wine in and hope tonights better.

All the best

Mark

Re: Leaky forums

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 17:29:50 GMT

And unbeknownst to his clientele, the landlord is feeling pretty ragged today, after being on duty through a six-seizure night last night. No sleep. Eyelids on matchsticks.

Re: Leaky forums

Mark Holmes — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 17:06:32 GMT

Lightening the tone a bit, this really is looking like an online pub..Meanwhile down at Arlo's the landlord is having trouble with a belligerent and troublesome customer.

Re: Leaky forums

James Laidlaw — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 16:37:18 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Yes, I wondered what motivation for your scaremongering. Now I remember.[/quote]

Hmmm my posting, my cautionary tale, precedes the nice man from Channel4 joining us.

You're right of course because this is your forum. My concerns are all scaremongering.

JGW

[/quote] They most often look like scaremongering.

Re: Leaky forums

J G Wray — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 16:29:22 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Yes, I wondered what motivation for your scaremongering. Now I remember.[/quote]

Hmmm my posting, my cautionary tale, precedes the nice man from Channel4 joining us.

You're right of course because this is your forum. My concerns are all scaremongering.

JGW

Re: Leaky forums

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 14:36:04 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]As far as this little incident goes, in the end you took another's denial over my allegation, one person's word against another. [/quote]

No, I didn't. My simple rule is this: if someone is going to make a malicious accusation on this site, then they had better be prepared to stand up and provide evidence. If not, their accusation is not worth the lavatory paper I wiped my backside on this morning, and I will delete it.

I am not prepared to take your word, why should I? Nor do I take their word. I have no idea who is right and wrong. Nor is it my right to judge. The simple fact is that you were the one that came and started dishing the dirt. It is therefore encumbent on you to provide the evidence.

[quote user="J G Wray"]I'd like to point out that I'm a moderator for the MRCVS forum.[/quote]

Yes, I wondered what motivation for your scaremongering. Now I remember.

Re: Leaky forums

J G Wray — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 14:09:31 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I do not see that you posting malicious and unsubstantiated accusations is in any way comparable to me having a peek at another veterinary website.[/quote]

Dear Mr G,

That may be your view, but did you ask the forum owners first? Have you asked them since if it was OK?

I'd like to point out that I'm a moderator for the MRCVS forum.

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Additionally, some might think it a little ironic that you, the very person who keeps highlighting the fact that online discussion forums are not secure, and the need to bear that in mind when posting, are also the one that comes and posts the kind of indiscreet and unverified - and potentially damaging to the profession - accusation that you do.[/quote]

As far as this little incident goes, in the end you took another's denial over my allegation, one person's word against another. I am satisfied that there was corroboration, you aren't. As for warning others, then perhaps I'm well placed, since I have, apparently, tested the boundaries. I have come across and enjoyed the attentions of the censorious and given my experience I'm bringing the subject up as a caution.

JGW

Re: Leaky forums

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 08:28:47 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"] I would not be so crass as to ask a journalist, a reporter, who his sources are when investigating something, like how other members only sites operate . Mr G's motives in looking at these could in no way be interpreted as opportunisitc and self-serving, a kind of "eyeing up the opposition" and could only have been in the interest of general research[/quote]

I wasn't investigating how other sites work for journalistic purposes, it was professional curiousity. But me having a look at other veterinary websites. Well, it isn't exactly what you'd call Watergate, is it.

[quote user="J G Wray"]In turn, I asked Mr G not to ask me to divulge who provided the source for my allegations. Mr G persisted, then declined to believe the veracity of my source and took a course of action when brought under pressure - a journalistic term for a complaint - from a senior and influential member of the profession.[/quote]

You made a malicious accusation against someone on this site. Their seniority was not relevant to me. I would have acted the same way regardless of who they were. I asked you to give me proof of your accusation. You refused. You refused to name your source. For all I know, it could have been Peter Pan. Quite fairly, therefore, and in the face of absolutely no evidence to support your argument, I deleted your accusation. I believe that was the right thing to do, and I would do it again.

I do not see that you posting malicious and unsubstantiated accusations is in any way comparable to me having a peek at another veterinary website.

Additionally, some might think it a little ironic that you, the very person who keeps highlighting the fact that online discussion forums are not secure, and the need to bear that in mind when posting, are also the one that comes and posts the kind of indiscreet and unverified - and potentially damaging to the profession - accusation that you do.

Re: Leaky forums

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 08:10:53 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Alan Tevendale"]Of course if someone is being a bl**dy idiot they ought to be told as such.[/quote]

Emphatically NO, and this is the point of the thread and the poster should receive the comment directly above, which is what we are trying to eliminate......so I won't say it.

Remember that "idiot" doctor who thought gastric ulcers were caused by a bacteria.......

Just point out the error of the poster's comments and leave the "idiot" opinion for others to surmise.

[/quote]

Anthony, I think you missed the tongue-in-cheek icon in Alan's post!

Re: Leaky forums

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 07:48:10 GMT

Except the tv producer never asked for client contacts, JGW. Don't fudge the facts, please. He asked HIS details to be passed on to an interested client.

Re: Leaky forums

Mark Holmes — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 07:45:44 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Alan Tevendale"]Of course if someone is being a bl**dy idiot they ought to be told as such.[/quote]

Emphatically NO, and this is the point of the thread and the poster should receive the comment directly above, which is what we are trying to eliminate......so I won't say it.

Remember that "idiot" doctor who thought gastric ulcers were caused by a bacteria.......

Just point out the error of the poster's comments and leave the "idiot" opinion for others to surmise.

[/quote] No there is a difference between behaving like an idiot and being independently minded. I caught somebody dropping his take away rubbish outside the clinic the otherday instead of using one if three bins provided. I told him he was a bloody idiot and even my 5 yr old knew better.

Re: Leaky forums

J G Wray — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 07:35:01 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I look at each complaint individually. In fact, there has been only one, and it was about one of your posts. As you will remember, you weren't prepared to provide any proof of your accusation, so I rejected it as complete and utter baloney, and deleted it.[/quote]

For those who are faintly interested Mr G also wrote:

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Three or four of you have very kindly lent ME (and I am a journalist too) your passwords for other veterinary forums so I can see content.[/quote]

I would not be so crass as to ask a journalist, a reporter, who his sources are when investigating something, like how other members only sites operate . Mr G's motives in looking at these could in no way be interpreted as opportunisitc and self-serving, a kind of "eyeing up the opposition" and could only have been in the interest of general research, which will no doubt be made available to all at some point. Divulging names would lead to all the unpleasantness of exposure to exactly the types I have mentioned (sic). In turn, I asked Mr G not to ask me to divulge who provided the source for my allegations. Mr G persisted, then declined to believe the veracity of my source and took a course of action when brought under pressure - a journalistic term for a complaint - from a senior and influential member of the profession.

I'm pretty sure that's how a journalist could write up this episode. What's sauce for the goose etc

Now, what's all this about the posting asking for client contacts from a commercial TV researcher signed up as a government researcher. That's a bit odd. Probably just a bit lazy.

JGW

Re: Leaky forums

Anthony Todd — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 01:05:14 GMT

[quote user="Alan Tevendale"]Of course if someone is being a bl**dy idiot they ought to be told as such.[/quote]

Emphatically NO, and this is the point of the thread and the poster should receive the comment directly above, which is what we are trying to eliminate......so I won't say it.

Remember that "idiot" doctor who thought gastric ulcers were caused by a bacteria.......

Just point out the error of the poster's comments and leave the "idiot" opinion for others to surmise.

Re: Leaky forums

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 22 Sep 2011 19:40:13 GMT

JGW, I look at each complaint individually. In fact, there has been only one, and it was about one of your posts. As you will remember, you weren't prepared to provide any proof of your accusation, so I rejected it as complete and utter baloney, and deleted it. What will I do next time? I don't know till next time happens, if it happens.

Re: Leaky forums

J G Wray — Thu, 22 Sep 2011 19:23:27 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]It's just common sense not to be indiscreet online, unless deliberately so![/quote]

Sooooooo Mr G, how would you respond to a complaint for a comment that got off this site? Would you be sensitive to an individual's charge of feeling "bullied", or a corporates concern about rumours regarding their product's efficacy (Frontline), or a senior member of the profession concerned about misrepresentation?

What's your policy when you get that complaint?

JGW

Re: Leaky forums

fluffygirl — Thu, 22 Sep 2011 17:28:55 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]Obviously the ladies would have abandoned us to go to a much classier cocktail bar or dancing around their handbags. [/quote]

Definitely not. I will be sat in a quiet corner tearing up beermats with a pint of Guinness.

Re: Leaky forums

Judith Joyce — Thu, 22 Sep 2011 17:06:56 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]

Ooh there's a thought, Messrs Wray, Ness, Barbour-Hill and Lehner nursing malts in the lounge for sure

[/quote]

Well I'm flattered to be considered posh enough

[/quote][quote user="bob lehner"]

...........if Mr Ness is there, it is definitely not posh - he is a public bar man through and through.

Re: Leaky forums

bob lehner — Thu, 22 Sep 2011 16:10:54 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]te]

Ooh there's a thought, Messrs Wray, Ness, Barbour-Hill and Lehner nursing malts in the lounge for sure

[/quote]

Well I'm flattered to be considered posh enough to inhabit the lounge bar - but I'll skip the malt, thanks. I haven't touched the stuff since a pal and I consumed a whole bottle to celebrate my 21st birthday.

We had a summer job working as ghillies on a Highland estate. To celebrate the occasion we consumed a prodigious venison curry (this was before I embraced vegetarianism), a large Christmas pudding, which we had found secreted in our bothy, followed by a couple of substantial Cuban cigars, courtesy of the laird, plus the (very expensive) bottle of malt. If you are ever out of apomorphine or washing soda and need an emetic in an emergency, I would recommend this combination - the effect is rapid and dramatic.

To this day, I only have to smell whisky to want to throw up.

Re: Leaky forums

Mark Holmes — Thu, 22 Sep 2011 15:49:12 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]JGW, or can I call you "Dubya"?[/quote]

That's a new one for me. Has it been used before?

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]Do you have any specific examples of this forum being as leaky as you describe? I feel you comments here in this post are running on hypothetical situations and bordering on scaremongering for arguments' sake.[/quote]

A cumulative effect. Two territory managers referring to what I had written on here - they'd been shown when visiting practices - and a comment from another member of the MRCVS list about how tight that is by comparison. I was not so foolish as to ask the reps who showed them or the colleague who was being very oblique in the refrence, but clear that stuff was getting off this site.

JGW

[/quote]

Thats not really the site's fault thats leaky people. Even MI6 have problems with leaky people although they have a permanent solution to the problem which I guess Arlo is reluctant to employ.

Re: Leaky forums

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 22 Sep 2011 15:44:46 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]Two territory managers referring to what I had written on here [/quote]

I'm not remotely surprised that other people in the veterinary profession have picked up your comments on this site, JGW, and I don't understand why you find that surprising. Territory managers are actually allowed to join this site. They didn't even have to go and find it out from some other practice.

[quote user="J G Wray"]clear that stuff was getting off this site[/quote]

Well of course it does. My point is (and always has been) that it is pretty easy to get into the MRCVS list, or indeed any other internet forum or discussion group, and for that reason you should not write something you would not be be happy to stand by in public, ANYWHERE on the internet.

My decision thus far to allow membership of vetsurgeon.org to quite a wide audience (ie inc. industry, animal charities etc.), is that in this age of ever greater transparency, I think it sends quite the wrong message to be doing anything which portrays the profession as skulking behind closed doors.

And honestly, I do think the risk is being rather over-inflated. VetNurse.co.uk has been around for over a decade, and there have been some occasionally somewhat indiscrete posts over there, without the world falling in upon itself. And your examples of indiscrete posts are simply not, to my mind, indiscrete. So some members of the profession have a poor opinion of rodentologists. So what?

If you post your thoughts on the most popular online community for veterinary surgeons, with a membership of over 7000, you'd be pretty foolish to think they would remain a secret. But it is the size of this community that makes it the success it is in so many other ways, i.e. the ability to tap into such a diverse range of opinions.

It's just common sense not to be indiscreet online, unless deliberately so!

Re: Leaky forums

J G Wray — Thu, 22 Sep 2011 14:36:26 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]JGW, or can I call you "Dubya"?[/quote]

That's a new one for me. Has it been used before?

JGW

Re: Leaky forums

Rob Davis — Thu, 22 Sep 2011 12:56:11 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]JGW, or can I call you "Dubya"? Do you have any specific examples of this forum being as leaky as you describe? I feel you comments here in this post are running on hypothetical situations and bordering on scaremongering for arguments' sake.

[/quote]

I suspect JGW is obliquely referring to incidents which occurred in a different veterinary discussion group in the past....