New grad and job offer

Re: New grad and job offer

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 29 Sep 2011 22:59:29 GMT

I wonder if the poor lass took the job or if we scared her off?

(was it a she?)

Re: New grad and job offer

Simon Neuhoff — Mon, 26 Sep 2011 16:14:48 GMT

Something I find depressing though is those few, fairly recent grads who think they know everything, don't go on any CPD - and are actually already out of date! Learning does not end with graduation - or shouldn't do anyway!

Re: New grad and job offer

Bob Russell — Mon, 26 Sep 2011 15:09:16 GMT

I find myself disagreeing with myself again! A confident (over confident?) new graduate can be a loose cannon.

We were told at college that we would become good vets (if we ever do) after about ten years in practice. Not so sure - the older I get the more I realise I have to learn. At this rate I will finally accept my totally ignorance by the time I retire!

Re: New grad and job offer

Simon Neuhoff — Mon, 26 Sep 2011 14:14:21 GMT

If I can gently disagree Bob I find new grads are exactly the opposite of "loose cannons". Much more like damp squibs - if anything they tend to be indecisive and inactive rather than going in all guns blazing.

That said they vary hugely - there are lots that are excellent, some that are dreadful. I was largely thrown in at the deep end and I managed to keep my head above water - and I didn't "bury" any more mistakes than the boss - fewer in fact.

Re: New grad and job offer

Bob Russell — Mon, 26 Sep 2011 10:40:34 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]

[quote user="newgradvet"]

I had some friends locum straight from uni very successfully actually. Obviously should be clear and honest with practice about skills and lack of experience but as I say some of my friends first jobs were as locums and they found it a useful experience.

Although I would agree hat MOST locm jobs would not suit a new graduate

[/quote]

I did a 6 month locum straight from uni and was often alone at a branch practice. It probably wasn't ideal but it was OK, great 'hit the ground running' experience and got offered a further 6 months at the practice as a result. There's a lot to be said for hvaing to get on with things and if I was ever really stuck the boss was at the other end of the phone (although the nurses usually knew the answer so tended to ask them first!).

[/quote]

The phrase that comes to mind is 'burying your mistakes'. A new graduate however good has to be considered a 'loose cannon' until proved otherwise.

Re: New grad and job offer

Wren — Mon, 26 Sep 2011 10:32:25 GMT

[quote user="newgradvet"]

Although I would agree hat MOST locm jobs would not suit a new graduate

[/quote]

Re: New grad and job offer

PATRICK MARSHALL — Thu, 22 Sep 2011 15:10:21 GMT

Sad but probaly true Mr Henry.

Would you care to join me for a sharpener at The Cavalry and Guards Club on 24th October prior to the Masonic meeting in Ordnance Hill?

Re: New grad and job offer

Simon Neuhoff — Wed, 21 Sep 2011 12:13:59 GMT

[quote user="newgradvet"]

Although I would agree hat MOST locm jobs would not suit a new graduate

[/quote]

Agreed - competence and experience are not the same thing. I know 5 year qualified vets who need their hands held every day, and I've worked with new grads who hit the ground running and never look back.

Re: New grad and job offer

Claire McConnell — Tue, 20 Sep 2011 22:06:23 GMT

Although I would agree hat MOST locm jobs would not suit a new graduate

Re: New grad and job offer

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 20 Sep 2011 21:17:57 GMT

After a while, he/she said. Hope that means a few years. And that's probably a lot less support than a lot of new grads get. :)

Re: New grad and job offer

Stephen Courtney — Tue, 20 Sep 2011 20:47:05 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

Thanks everyone for your help.

I may accept the job offer, despite less support than what I'd like, but there is also a shortage of job I think.

So better to start and change later on with a bit more experience on board.

Have said that, it's depressing indeed, and my query is to do with other jobs out there.

If we compare the salary with other jobs, like someone mentioned in the retail business, there seems to be a little difference.

Agree we may have house and car allowances, but then if you do well in the retail I believe you can easily have a very good career and very good money.

So, yeah, it's sad working for peanuts. But I'll think to work as locum after a while!

[/quote]

As a new graduate you are absolutely not competent to locum. Don't do it.

Re: New grad and job offer

Gerry Henry — Tue, 20 Sep 2011 17:18:37 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Gerry Henry"] too many women working part time to supplement the main family wage (ie the man's) are pulling wages down and down.[/quote]

Why? Are people under-paying women part-timers or do just think they are doormats and happy to work for peanuts? . Do you pay women less than men??

I genuinely don't understand your argument.

[/quote]

Correct, people pay them peanuts because they will accept peanuts and this drags the average down. They accept peanuts because 1) there is oversupply 2) generally they are tied to a short radius due to home/family committments and have to take what's offered.

Re: New grad and job offer

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:12:54 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Are you saying that gestation, parturition, child care and running a household are not work? [/quote]

Hahaha - I'm hardly the one to say that am I? I work part-time (job share with my ovver arf) and when the kiddies were little, days 'at work' were a blessing for my sanity!

Re: New grad and job offer

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:11:07 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]No amount of criticism of employers will change the fact that maternity leave can cause massive disruption. Maternity legislation is very strict because of the problems it causes to employers. A little sympathy is due to those of us on the employers side of things![/quote]

Look at it a different way- all the women in my practice who have had babies are now back at work part-time, often covering days when we are short-staffed, such as when others are at college. They are stable, settled and likely to be around for a while (hopefully). There are benefits.

I'm not asking for any sympathy as an employer...but maybe that's because I've been there and know how sad I felt when my employer of 3 years, when told I was pregnant, looked nothing other than disappointed. No good for morale.

Re: New grad and job offer

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:06:34 GMT

[quote user="Gerry Henry"] too many women working part time to supplement the main family wage (ie the man's) are pulling wages down and down.[/quote]

Why? Are people under-paying women part-timers or do just think they are doormats and happy to work for peanuts? . Do you pay women less than men??

I genuinely don't understand your argument.

Re: New grad and job offer

Joyce Whitehead — Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:52:14 GMT

I don't particularly want to get into the sexism argument, but did read an interesting statistic that in 1949, if every applicant to vet school had been admitted, 70% of them would have been women, so it has always been a profession attractive to women. Of course in 1949 they only accepted 12% of women by agreement.

I don't think that the poor pay is something that a lot of teenagers think about when they apply to vet college, as if they really want to be a vet that is more important. Having said that, I have two teenagers who do not want to be vets (one just started physiotherapy, and one considering medicine), and the boy (medicine) certainly is swayed by future earnings. Maybe that is because he has lived for too long with two vets!

I can't quite see how more women and more part time workers (which is an advantage in a small practice such as ours) cause overall wages to fall, unless men are being paid more pro rata? (Maybe I am missing something though).

Re: New grad and job offer

James Laidlaw — Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:20:29 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

Unless working significantly within the m25 essex is not comparable in any way to working at westfield in shepherd's bush or even stratford. why do you think so many people working in london live in essex and commute? prices are not in any way 'comparable'.

[/quote] So the clinics I've worked outside the m25 that charge £50 for a consult were just in my imagination?

Re: New grad and job offer

James Laidlaw — Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:18:53 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]Bedtime anyway, I need to be in a better mood than this with 3 dentals tomorrow...[/quote]

Surely the very thought should have you in a good mood................?

[/quote] Indeed, and they all went well. Including a young animal with a fractured canine. I find them much easier than I did on 3 occasions locumming where we had a hacksaw and one multi-tool luxator/elevator combo tool. Equipment sure helps.

Re: New grad and job offer

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 20 Sep 2011 13:55:02 GMT

I agree with Bob in that poor pay (for academic requirements ) puts boys off. After all even though all I've ever wanted to be is a veterinary surgeon, I occasionally think it would have been nice to be a doctor, and then give the £1.5 million extra I would have earned (post tax ) to an animal charity. I'd probably be Dame Wynne Richards by now if I had done that !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wynne

Re: New grad and job offer

Bob Russell — Tue, 20 Sep 2011 13:32:06 GMT

I was fortunate in that neither of my sons ever wanted to be vets. Just a daughter to persuade to be doctor or a barrister (or marry a millionaire!)!

Re: New grad and job offer

David Mills — Tue, 20 Sep 2011 13:30:49 GMT

For once, I agree with Mr Henry. What he said wasn't inherently sexist but people cry such to avoid confronting the issue.

For a small profession of mainly small practices, maternity cover, and the part-time nature of people returning to work (quite apart from the disruption of ill kids, school runs etc) are a massive drain on capital. We should not be surprised that new grads are failing to find jobs or being paid less because there are lots of part timers who are ruinously expensive to employ compared to full-timers with few responsibilties. This is not to say women working is wrong - it's simply the way it is. Deal with it instead of embracing the leftist bullocks of sexism.

Re: New grad and job offer

Mark Holmes — Tue, 20 Sep 2011 13:22:10 GMT

Well there is currently one little boy who is determined to be a vet and work with his daddy. I don't have the heart to tell him that by the time he is old enought o follow that dream his daddy intends not to be a vet.

I guess I have 14 years or so to change his mind.

Re: New grad and job offer

Bob Russell — Tue, 20 Sep 2011 13:16:55 GMT

I genuinely think boys look at the hard work involved and the pay/conditions and this is enough for a lot of them. I accept girls can be more academically minded but boys can be bloody minded and determined!

The loss of large animal work has not helped. I also suspect the profession now has a 'girly' image that puts off some boys. Going back to sexist thing we must all thank goodness that this has happened because the number of unemployed or working for peanuts vets would go up further.

I was always amazed that as far as immigration is concerned there is a vet shortage! At least this seems to be due to be corrected. It will shut off the supply of non-EU vets. Not sure how it will affect Commonwealth vets though.

I am going to go into the office, find my rose-tinted spectacles and look back into the past with them!

Re: New grad and job offer

Mark Rowland — Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:38:27 GMT

AFAIK its down to girls being more academically minded at the entrance age which skews the initial ratios in favor of the fairer sex. Damn you Nintendo DS, back to hell Gears of War

Re: New grad and job offer

Simon Neuhoff — Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:28:06 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]

Too many vets qualifying and too many of them are women.

[/quote]Too many are women? Most are women now, this is a fact but not a problem in itself. I don't think gender affects how good a vet is. My problem with the percentage of women being trained is why? Is it that a vet cannot expect to earn enough to be a primary breadwinner?

This thread is suggesting that with the salaries on offer many male students are put off becoming vets because they see much better financial rewards elsewhere.

[/quote]

I am also genuinely curious as to why the gender balance has swung so sharply. This is the case internationally as well - but has anyone actually looked at why this is?

Surely it can't be purely down to forces created by the traditional (stereoptypical?) male-breadwinner-female-part-timer roles? Why are schoolboys no longer interested in being vets?