Using your own car to transport animals

Re: Using your own car to transport animals

Gerry Henry — Thu, 09 Feb 2012 09:32:27 GMT

Great story, love it.

When I opened my last practice I went to a second hand catering equipment company for a BIG freezer, the salesman kept hanging round, pestering me with inane repetitions of 'Can I help you' . Eventually I succumbed, 'Yes you can, I want a really big freezer', 'and what might sir require said freezer for', he beamed, 'cadavers' I replied, and do you know what, he p*ssed off sharpish. Can't think why.

Re: Using your own car to transport animals

james herriot lied — Wed, 08 Feb 2012 21:46:51 GMT

Read this thread with interest: certainly a clear dividing line between the camps.

Here's a slightly different take on the issue: a couple of years ago, as a member of a search and rescue team, I was contacted by the local police force. They had a body (human), which they needed to present to the coroner's department for all the things which a coroner does. Unfortunately, the body was a long way from the tarmac and and pretty inaccessible; but mostly, it wouldn't fit in the back of the police 4x4. The local force knew that I had a SWB Defender (landrover), which would reach the unfortunate departed.

So I turned out - for free, so it's unlikely that there were any insurance problems. We got the body onto a stretcher, but one of the problems with a SWB landy is that it's got quite a short wheelbase. So the stretcher had to run front-back, with the head end on the dash next to me, and the feet up against the rear door.

I then had to drive through the local town, with a (covered) body in a stretcher propped up on the dashboard. With a police escort. At the local nick, I was supposed to wait for the coroner's rep to effect a transfer and sign a couple of sheets. Unfortunately, it was getting dark, so I asked to be excused.

'Could you not wait a bit longer till the coroner's van gets here?'

'Not really, I've no headlights on the Defender, so I need to get home sharpish - else I might get nicked '

There was a moment when I really thought I was going to get a ticket...........

Re: Using your own car to transport animals

Busybee — Wed, 08 Feb 2012 21:05:43 GMT

Just a brief add-on to this thread...

Just tried to renew my RAC membership which has thrown up yet more issues! I am an assistant in a mixed practice and use my own car for work. I have business insurance on my car and because of this, RAC are now saying they're not sure whether I need regular break down cover or business break down cover - never something I'd considered before! I don't routinely carry veterinary equipment around, we have a 'visits box' that gets used between the assistants on call outs. Of course, the right department is closed now so need to phone first thing to clarify the situation.

Has anyone else come across this before?

Re: Using your own car to transport animals

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:00:55 GMT

I both do house visits and transport both live and dead animals in my car, but:

a) I'm the practice owner, so the goodwill I create improves practice profitability

b) because I use the car this way a % of capital and running costs can be set against tax, tocompensate for increased depreciation

and

c) I'm insured,and therefore legal

When I employed an assistant,Iprovided a car because I didn't think asking an employee to possibly spoiltheir own vehicle was fair,and yes,this was expensive I eventually decided that :

a) an assistant cost too much, so financially I was better off increasing both gross and net margins by reducing staffing levels,and increasing fees, so as to shed money concious clients, reducing the work load towhat was manageable single-handedly

and

b) I found the increased on-call time far less stressful than trying to get an assistant to sing from the same hymn sheet

As Tim said "one size doesn't fit all " but an assistant should never be put in a situation of having to chose between disobeying the law, or the Gto PC

Wynne

Re: Using your own car to transport animals

Clive Ansell — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 19:50:05 GMT

[quote user="Tim Mainland"]

- and to lay the problem at the door of the client who took on a huge dog that they can't get to the vet is to agree with the OOH centre who doesn't do visits - and thereby incur both RCVS & Wynne's ire..................!!

[/quote]

I don't agree. If someone makes the lifestyle choice to own a 94Kg Newfoundland they should have in place a means of transporting their dog in an emergency situation. They should take responsibility for their choice of pet. Even where we can and do do home visits it is often not possible immediately (busy single vet practice at 5pm on Friday), so in the event of a real emergency (GDV, status epilepticus, severe haemorrage etc) the quicker the dog can be brought to the surgery the better its survival odds.

[quote user="Tim Mainland"]

Saying you "won't ever use your car to carry a sick dog back to the surgery" makes me very unhappy. It could be an oath breaker. But if you never do it, because you have always found a better way, and have always kept both patient and client happy.....well that's being adaptable in my book.

[/quote]

Then, you will have to be unhappy. In my case, to transport live animals without the appropriate insurance would be foolhardy and illegal. Being a veterinary surgeon doesn't give one carte blanche to break the law.

I can't see that it would be an oath breaker? if one is prepared to attend and give emergency care to relieve distress and suffering, i.e. analgesia for transport or pts then the GtoPC has been obeyed. In Albring Vs RCVS, if the VS had attended and euthanased the dog, but then left it on the lawn in the rain, it may have been aesthetically unpleasing and a PR disaster, but he would have fulfilled his professional obligation.

As I have said, I have never had any major problems in this area, and have always managed to get sick patients to the surgery one way or another.

Re: Using your own car to transport animals

Tim Mainland — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 19:43:34 GMT

Robin,

You're on the verge of becoming adaptable - can't disagree with any of that. As my wife always reminds me..."it's the way you say it".

But to go back to where you came in on this....the sick animal which really needs to go back to the surgery, and the owner has no transport....

You are there. No other vet or taxi driver. You have an oath, and a car. And little else that will help. Do you use the car and support your oath ( and your patient) or prattle on about "what is reasonable". The situation you describe may well be "unreasonable" but that's not the point. It is a moment in time, and it is your call - and yours alone. Or are you adaptable enough to think laterally and find an alternative route out of the predicament in which you find yourself?

Re: Using your own car to transport animals

Robin Grimmer — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 19:14:31 GMT

[quote user="Tim Mainland"]

No we don't specify what vehicle staff own in any way. I'm the only one who drives a Skoda and quite envy some of the cars that t'others roll up in!

Having had a practice fleet for 17 years, I well know the financial ins and outs of practice vehicles of all types. And not owning any wins hands down! If I did want to spend 2-3K per annum on advertising I do think I could do it better than a signed van - and no, we just don't have those other day to day uses for transport that justifies a vehicle. But I used to have a practice that did. I'm simply saying that we all get into ruts and don't know how the other half live. These days there is an almighty diversity of veterinary practices which have vast variations in clientelle, geography, financial overheads and.. and... and..... And one size just doesn't fit all.

Robin said "it has nothing to do with being dadptable" but then only told me what he would not do! Vet work is all about being adaptable, fitting niches, working to budgets- practice's and cliet's - and to lay the problem at the door of the client who took on a huge dog that they can't get to the vet is to agree with the OOH centre who doesn't do visits - and thereby incur both RCVS & Wynne's ire..................!!

There's lots of ways to bake a cake and there's lots of ways to keep both clients and vets happy. Or unhappy. Saying you "won't ever use your car to carry a sick dog back to the surgery" makes me very unhappy. It could be an oath breaker. But if you never do it, because you have always found a better way, and have always kept both patient and client happy.....well that's being adaptable in my book.

[/quote]

It's not a question of being adaptable, Tim. It's whether it's reasonable to do it. We all have to deal with clients wishes, and accommodate them when we can, but sometimes their requests are unreasonable (and may well not be in the animal's best interests). I have on occasion taken an old lady's cat back to the surgery in a basket but have never yet had to transport a sick dog back to the surgery. I've always done visits where requested, it does vary from practice to practice. As Clive said, I've not had any major issues yet. For people without transport there are always taxis and in some areas there are dedicated pet taxis who will take the pet and owner to the vet. Euthanasias aside, home visits are generally not very productive and time consuming. If the animal is unwell then the pet will need to come to the surgery.

Re: Using your own car to transport animals

Tim Mainland — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 17:35:36 GMT

No we don't specify what vehicle staff own in any way. I'm the only one who drives a Skoda and quite envy some of the cars that t'others roll up in!

Re: Using your own car to transport animals

Clive Ansell — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 17:27:42 GMT

I was just thinking the same thing. Why not get an old car or van, something like an old peugeot 205 diesel; fairly reliable, running costs not bad, insurance not silly either, seats fold down giving fair amount of space. Also useful as a general run around.

Re: Using your own car to transport animals

Mark Holmes — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 17:12:52 GMT

Seriously though, I don't think its about the bigger picture. I have yet to work in a practice where a practice vehicle did not get used alot. Not just for transporting animal but for additional practice related journeys. A cheapish van with signage is good advertising. If its not in use just park it up at Tescos for the morning. How much would you have to pay for ad space like that?

Its very tempting to own a saloon type vehicle or a KA. Do you have a requirement for the type of vehicle your vets own?

Re: Using your own car to transport animals

Clive Ansell — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 17:09:45 GMT

[quote user="Tim Mainland"]

Fortunately we don't have a huge need for locums, but if we did, then I would not find it unreasonable to ask them to bring a body back to surgery - and pay them for doing so. But if they made it clear that they wouldn't, then maybe, just maybe it would be a deal breaker before we started.

Are we an adaptable profession? I'm not sure.......

[/quote]

As a locum it is something I like to discuss and agree on within general terms and conditions before accepting any position. I have business use insurance, but it does not include the transport of live animals, therefore I do not transport under any circumstance. I will bring a body back to the surgery after a PTS as long as it is in a body bag ( I can almost always get a body into a bag discreetly in the back of the car without offending the client). I have small hatchback, so cannot transport giant dog breed bodies and clients have to make their own arrangements. I am as adaptable as I can be, but the client has to take responsibility for their animal too.

Also, I quite prepared to carry out home visits with a mileage charge to the practice. This is always dependent on having enough staff (some places don't) to take an assistant, having time in the daily schedule within the working day, and if there is any question mark over personal safety I reserve the right to decline. I find in most cases clients can be persuaded to come to the surgery and transport can be arranged with a local animal ambulance or pet taxi. Not had any major issues yet.

Re: Using your own car to transport animals

Mark Holmes — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 17:04:35 GMT

[quote user="Tim Mainland"]

A PTS is one thing but what about a dog with diarrhoea?

Exactly my point Mark! 3 visits a month with most of them being PTS's. Of the rest, well there'll be some old cats, arthritic dogs.....exactly how often is a diarrhoeic dog that needs repatriation going to occur for us? Well I don't remember the last one!

So, as I said, how adaptable are we? Can vets think on their feet, and be human beings? I don't impose an answer, but I do expect a patient and client friendly resolution to unusual, infrequent challenges. My experience is that mine cope admirably, but it's a small sample number of vets. And from the responses on this list, I'm worried about the bigger picture.

[/quote]

Maybe you don't pay your vets well enough for them to be able to afford a car that matters?

Re: Using your own car to transport animals

Robin Grimmer — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 17:03:35 GMT

[quote user="Tim Mainland"]

A PTS is one thing but what about a dog with diarrhoea?

[/quote]

As I said before, I have no problem in doing PTS visits and taking the body away (in a sealed bag). But I draw the line at transporting a live animal that may soil my car. It's got nothing to do with being adaptable. I think there is a problem with some clients who get sometimes very unsuitably large dogs and don't think what will happen if they need to get their dog to a vet in an emergency.

Re: Using your own car to transport animals

Tim Mainland — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 16:25:28 GMT

A PTS is one thing but what about a dog with diarrhoea?

Re: Using your own car to transport animals

Mark Holmes — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 15:56:43 GMT

[quote user="Tim Mainland"]

This thread demonstrates the huge danger of attempting to apply a "one size fits all" answer to a modern day vet practice scenario.

When I used to run a mixed practice back in the 80s/90s all the assistants had practice cars, & I would have expected them to transport pets and bodies as necessary. After all, we paid for the vehicle.

These days I run a suburban SA-only practice. We probably do maybe 3 visits per month and most of those are PTS's. Total monthly visit mileage maybe only 10 miles! To run a dedicated vehicle for such a purpose would give a ridiculous £/mile overhead. And it would also significantly impact on profitability and wages. Would it be a sensible use of resources? I don't think so. I'd rather be able to pay all the staff a little more, than have a vehicle sit outside rotting. We thus do expect some "give and take" when it comes to these infrequent occurences, and that seems to be well understood and given by our vet team.

I hate waste, and having a practice vehicle for us would be just that. Not so in my old practice - a wholly different story.

Are we an adaptable profession? I'm not sure.......

[/quote]

A PTS is one thing but what about a dog with diarrhoea?

Re: Using your own car to transport animals

Tim Mainland — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 15:33:05 GMT

This thread demonstrates the huge danger of attempting to apply a "one size fits all" answer to a modern day vet practice scenario.

I hate waste, and having a practice vehicle for us would be just that. Not so in my old practice - a wholly different story.

Are we an adaptable profession? I'm not sure.......

Re: Using your own car to transport animals

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 11:49:08 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Evelyn You remind me of when I went towork for Peter Shepherd I inherited a car from the previous assistant-who had broken a bottle of multivits in it-smelt like gone off Marmite After about a year the car was replaced Guess what I broke in it the 1st week ?Yes -a bottle of multivits

Wynne

[/quote]

Oh yes, the Parentrovite smell. I used to quite like that.

Re: Using your own car to transport animals

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 10:39:20 GMT

Wynne

Re: Using your own car to transport animals

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 20:30:59 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]Good point. I don't think any amount of compensation or valeting will removal the smell of certain body fluids. Your car is ruined.[/quote]

In one of my jobs I was provided with this ancient VW. The smell was appalling. It wasn't so much the urine smell, or the mould smell, it was the filthy cigars my employer had been smoking in it.

Re: Using your own car to transport animals

bob lehner — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 16:58:16 GMT

[quote user="Christopher Saul"]You put a live pet in your car, and as a result of this pet distracting you, you have an accident[/quote]

A friend/client of mine was transporting her brainless bloodhound to the surgery the other day. It had a panic attack (not used to going in the car) and broke through the dog guard in the back of the car, ending up sitting on her lap in the driving seat.

Certainly could have caused a major crash....

Re: Using your own car to transport animals

Robin Grimmer — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 13:51:22 GMT

Good point. I don't think any amount of compensation or valeting will removal the smell of certain body fluids. Your car is ruined.

I am prepared to do visits as per the GPC and we all know about recent discplinary cases where a vet failed to attend an animal at home.

But under no circumstances am I transporting someone's pet back to the surgery or anywhere else.

And for the record my car is a bog standard second hand Ford Mondeo. But it's my only car and I don't see why I should have to have a

second car for vet duties!

Re: Using your own car to transport animals

Christopher Saul — Sun, 06 Nov 2011 23:14:09 GMT

There's certainly some variation in people's opinion on this one!

For those who would say we should transport animals in our cars for our clients, imagine this....

You put a live pet in your car, and as a result of this pet distracting you, you have an accident, perhaps injuring other road users or even worse killing someone. Do the feelings of your clients outweigh the rights of those other road users you have injured, killed or even just endangered?

Re: Using your own car to transport animals

David Strong — Sat, 05 Nov 2011 22:35:57 GMT

Valleting/own time de-contaminating your car etc should be sufficiently compensated by the practice if your own vehicle use is the only means at their disposal (ie no practice car/van), so common decency, and yes, money, does come into it.

The charity that I work for currently insist on viewing all vets' driving licenses and insurrance documentation to ensure that their acting legally. We were all aware that transporting animals was part of the service before signing contracts. Perhaps private practices expecting permanent and locum staff to carry out similar duties should also be doing the same and definitely supporting staff adequately if the initial arrangements are not adequate. Most owners are reasonable and suitable arrangements can almost always possible when keeping dialogue open. I'm sure most owners don't expect vets to have their own cars contaminated with body fluids or breaking the law re: insurrance as part of 'the service'. Vehicle use and expectations should all be sorted out before taking up a post and is perhaps one of the many hazards of locuming. Many smaller practices do not have the necc resources for running an extra vehicle, so prior discussion is essential. Perhaps working in certain practices and having a nice car of your own is sometimes incompatible. These forums are great for raising this awareness.

I really hate the idea that you're not allowed to really enjoy a nice car because you're a vet, but this has to be consistent with expected duties. Running 2 cars is a pain in the backside (speaking from experience with my own car and a practice car). Don't stick with an unsupportive practice and don't take up a job where you're expected to use your own car for this sort of thing if it's insufficiently insurred or you're not prepared to take the hit of getting it dirty, simple.

Re: Using your own car to transport animals

Robin Grimmer — Fri, 04 Nov 2011 07:48:55 GMT

[quote user="David Strong"]

I feel it wouldn't be at all unfair to refuse animal transportation, especially if you weren't sufficiently re-imbursed for any personal costs incurred (excessive depreciation from offensive odours, increased insurrance costs, 2' vehicle costs?) and that these costs be met by the client. Many practices have a spare compay car that could be used for such duties.

Current situation... I'm in charitable practice with my own car, but also car allowance. We transport live animals in suitable containment between centres when the owners are unable to. For large dogs, and only if safe to do so, driver + another member of staff to keep the animal under control. I feel the car allowance is fair/sufficient re-imbursement for expectations. I'm hardly ever transporting dead animals.

[/quote]

I'm sorry, but it's not about money. No amount of money can compensate for a car contaminated by body fluids. The answer is simple, especially given the grey area of being insured to carry live animals. If the practice expects a locum or assistant to transport a live animal on behalf of the owner, then they should provide a practice vehicle/ambulance. It hasn't got to be anything flash, but preferably a van with a solid metal floor that is easy to clean.

Re: Using your own car to transport animals

David Strong — Fri, 04 Nov 2011 00:34:43 GMT

I used to transport a lot of dead animals after home PTS's (no nurse), but the company cars were suitable and never smelt very pleasant anyway (dirty lambing/calving ropes/dirty water-proofs sitting in the back for a couple of hours between visits/returning to base etc). Very different from using personal transport!

I feel it wouldn't be at all unfair to refuse animal transportation, especially if you weren't sufficiently re-imbursed for any personal costs incurred (excessive depreciation from offensive odours, increased insurrance costs, 2' vehicle costs?) and that these costs be met by the client. Its one thing being compassioante, another going excessively beyond the call of duty and incurring unrecoverable personal costs during duties. Many practices have a spare compay car that could be used for such duties.

Carrying a clean cat carried in a company vehicle would be a very different prospect to a parvo covered Newfy in a slightly more precious personal vehicle rarely used for this purpose.

Any reasonable client I'm sure whould be able to make the distinction and come to some level of understanding if you can keep the dialogue sufficiently open. Some of the cremations companies have surprisingly rapid response times!

'Posh' body bags are available with a zip up the front.(a bit like the human bags). Although I've never seen anyone use them and I guess they could be seen as being a bit cheesy, I can see them going down well in more affluent areas where we'd be seen by some as more as a service industry than a profession. Also great if you're expected to use your own slightly more precious care for locumming duties, prob proving a worth-while investment re: keeping things fresh without alienating clients. Costs of such bags either recoverable from the client or practice or perhaps just a hit you take in terms of a nice car lifestyle choice?

I'm not exactly small, but also consider the risk assessment with animal size/weight. You're well within your rights to refuse transporting animals outwith your capacity, Is transporting a dead very large dog very much different from transporting a dead horse? Leave it to those who have the right set-up.