Bogus vets registration PINs

Re: Bogus vets registration PINs

Mark Holmes — Fri, 16 Sep 2011 11:56:39 GMT

I have never shown any employer EVER, thats locuming or as an employed vet any evidence that I am on the register. (I have worked with some vets who have pushed me to check that they are!)

Re: Bogus vets registration PINs

Bob Russell — Fri, 16 Sep 2011 09:58:07 GMT

Don't forget that all employers should be checking that a new employee is legally entitled to work. This means checking and copying the passport and keeping the copy.

Employing someone not entitled to work in the UK is a £5K fine. Doing it knowingly is £10K.

We had a nurse (qualified in UK) as 'English' as can be but it turned out that actually she had an American passport! This might have made her ineligible to work but in her case she was fully entitled to work in the UK.

Doing this also reduces the chances of fraudulent vets because you can check them against the register!

How many practice owners have seen evidence that all their staff are OK to work in the UK?

Re: Bogus vets registration PINs

Helen Wallace — Fri, 16 Sep 2011 09:03:08 GMT

We do have photo driving licences but only since the late 90s so those of us old enough to have passed out driving tests before then only have the old style paper ones. I'm planning on seeing if I can change mine as I don't like carrying my passport and have no other photo id. I got refused to buy beer the other week. Not tatally unhappy though, if they think I can pass for under 25

Re: Bogus vets registration PINs

Tim Cheyne — Fri, 16 Sep 2011 08:01:04 GMT

Do you not have photo driving licences in UK or are they volountary? If you do, would that not identify the person? The rest could be solved by a telephone call to RCVS. Out here I have a small wallet full of ID cards for various purposes, all carrying the same photo and personal ID number although only my passport describes me as a veterinarian. They become so much a part of life and are so useful that I long ago ceased to object to a mandatory UK ID card (in principle; the practicalities are another matter).

Tim.

Re: Bogus vets registration PINs

J G Wray — Fri, 16 Sep 2011 07:33:41 GMT

From the MRCVS site again

"..The use of personal photo-ID establishes who the individual is. It doesn't, of itself, confirm that that they are registered and for how long they've paid up and whether they are qualified to practice.

A letter from RCVS confirming registration is flimsy and checking the register is better, but it requires the protential employer to do this. Furthermore, the information available on the register does not tell you when the registration term paid for expires. In the case of locums or those employees paying for their own registration who "forget" to renew -I write from experience, something I discussed on the SPVS lsit when it happened - this means your employees can be practicing illegally.

If you shift the onus to the RCVS and the locum/employee to provide RCVS specific information you kill two birds. Firstly, you get the RCVS to work harder on one of the core Statutory duties and secondly you avoid all DPA issues - let me explain.

If a potential employee is asked to access their own information from a secure area of the RCVS site at interview, then it is not a DPA issue. If they can access an area with a unique code which contains their registration details then it is secure and only public when under their control for their own purposes - applying for a job. There is no DPA issue. A photo is unnecessary for this purpose, so the RCVS avoids getting into the messy area of holding photos over long periods of time. The new RCVS registration system is of unknown specification, but there is a profound overhead in receiving 24,000 photos and more on a rolling basis to input to the system. The RCVS communicate by post and other means, having a cast iron certainty of address of each member now. Adding a secure area to the website and issuing ID PINs looks more efficient and gulp cost effective to me...."

JGW

Re: Bogus vets registration PINs

Bob Russell — Thu, 15 Sep 2011 17:03:43 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Easy for the RCVS surely, that's if their £400k program can mate with a .pdf, .tif or even a ,jpg......[/quote]

No, but the "developers" will offer to add this facility for another £20k or so....................

[/quote]

£20K but this will only cover black and white images on A4 photo paper (but only Epson) unless it is a Tuesday and the month has a G in it. For full functionality it will be necessary to purchase the G8000 bolt on unit and software. This will make it £45K plus the annual maintenance and support fee.

'Oh we must have that' cry the RCVS it comes in a bright blue box with lots of flashing lights on it!

Re: Bogus vets registration PINs

James Laidlaw — Thu, 15 Sep 2011 16:04:50 GMT

Problem with PINs is people often use one for everything. Theoretically giving the RCVS a percentage of our bank PIN's... Would we then have a percentage of "voluntary donations" to the RCVS?

More seriously though, if we pay £200 or £300 or £400 a year (whichever is closest) to register, surely they can provide an ID card of sorts. BSAVA do it, for less money, as do national trust and English heritage. Would it be that much more hassle to put a photo onto the card. Just provide one each year on registration, or if the previous year is still a reasonable likeness, keep the old photo...

Re: Bogus vets registration PINs

J G Wray — Thu, 15 Sep 2011 15:06:22 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]Photo registration. Simple, and it works for Glastonbury.[/quote]

I take your point, but...issuing a RCVS photoID is a completely foreign process to the RCVS. Furthermore, you age and re-issue becomes necessary and an addtional cost. Then there's whether, in a society which does not issue photo ID as a matter of course, it is justifiable for a purpose intended to last 40years plus.

I prefer a unique ID code, which happens to be a PIN because it can be dovetailed with existing systems and can go out on a mailing. Banks are happy with unique codes to prevent fraud. Pet Passports use a unique code. These are low admin and low cost anti fraud measures and a photoID/Practice Passport looks a bit gold plated to me

I also think this should be driven by those who should be doing their job better, rather than making it a condition of our right to practice that we obtain satisfactory photos to submit to RCVS.

JGW

Re: Bogus vets registration PINs

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 15 Sep 2011 13:33:28 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Easy for the RCVS surely, that's if their £400k program can mate with a .pdf, .tif or even a ,jpg......[/quote]

No, but the "developers" will offer to add this facility for another £20k or so....................

Re: Bogus vets registration PINs

James Laidlaw — Thu, 15 Sep 2011 08:37:49 GMT

Photo registration. Simple, and it works for Glastonbury.

Re: Bogus vets registration PINs

Anthony Todd — Thu, 15 Sep 2011 08:11:05 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]In Other Worlds e.g. legal transactions clients have to prove their identity with two proof[/quote]

Er, been there, had my identity copied and nearly had a property sold and the money gone.

Suggested to the Land Registry that a scan of the picture page of the owner's passport would have told them that a 30yo Sri Lankan was probably not the same "owner" as a 70yo white New Zealander and, surprise, surprise they now insist on a picture passport page with registrations.

Easy for the RCVS surely, that's if their £400k program can mate with a .pdf, .tif or even a ,jpg.......

Re: Bogus vets registration PINs

J G Wray — Thu, 15 Sep 2011 07:31:26 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

It makes sense to me to be able to access the validated registration details of a prospective employee;

Name, date and place of qualification etc. etc.

[/quote]

Quite so, but impersonation of existing MsRCVS is possible. How would I know, for instance, that the Anthony Todd who turned up for interview is the real one? There is also the matter of the DPA. You will already know Name, date and place of qualification etc. etc. from any application cv. The process of validation should rest with the applicant, in my view, so there is no question of leak of personal information.

In Other Worlds e.g. legal transactions clients have to prove their identity with two proofs, of the person (passport, driving licence photoID, Forces ID) and their residence (Utilitiy, bills, bank bills no more than three months old). This is all to do with avoiding money laundering and places the onus on the professional.

The RCVS have a Statutory requirement to protect the public and by extension that's veterinary employers as well and in the face of determined people is failing in that respect. Therefore, the onus is on them to make the system more foolproof. They've attempted same by changing the rigour of annual re registration, by shoving the onus back on to us to put a practicing address in. There was disquiet and the bogus vet got through. B ut, now they've forced this on the profession I think they should take a further step, utilising the vaunted and very very expensive new IT systems they're reluctant to discuss and come up with the next step.

I'm just not sure what that should be, hence this pro-active thread. What method should be used? If an answer comes from a popular forum then resistance to and resentment of its use will be lower

JGW

Re: Bogus vets registration PINs

Anthony Todd — Thu, 15 Sep 2011 02:22:40 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]Re: Bogus vet[/quote]

It makes sense to me to be able to access the validated registration details of a prospective employee;

Name, date and place of qualification etc. etc.