Invoicing as locum/pay concerns

Re: Invoicing as locum/pay concerns

patrick murphy — Mon, 12 Sep 2011 13:57:35 GMT

new thread? I got £45 per day with a rent a wreck or worse and B&B.I am sure that lots can beat that.

Re: Invoicing as locum/pay concerns

James Laidlaw — Sun, 11 Sep 2011 23:15:05 GMT

Just to finish up - I agree with you totally there! :)

Re: Invoicing as locum/pay concerns

Ian Mostyn — Sun, 11 Sep 2011 22:32:26 GMT

We have always paid our locums as employees not as self-employed and as our regular staff get paid in arrears, our locums get paid in arrears. If the payday is coming up soon, it is so much easier to include the locum in the normal pay run. If there is going to be more than 2 weeks I would do a separate pay run but it does complicate things and don't expect to get paid twice within a pay period - that causes nightmares in the payroll software!!

It is not reasonable to expect a short term locum to be paid instantly on the last day of work but if you have a long term locum, there is no reason why they shouldn't get paid on payday, same as everyone else. I would still say that 7 - 14 days is reasonable for everyone to get the paperwork in order and allow time for bank payments to go through.

Ian

Re: Invoicing as locum/pay concerns

James Laidlaw — Sun, 11 Sep 2011 22:14:15 GMT

Sorry too! My point is salaried staff get paid on the day for their work to that day. Locums can vary how often they invoice which makes it a bit more complicated, but why wait? The work has been done. Salaried staff don't wait, they're just paid the same amount regularly.

Re: Invoicing as locum/pay concerns

Ian Mostyn — Sun, 11 Sep 2011 21:46:32 GMT

Sorry but you didn't read what I said. I said 14 days is reasonable, 30 days absolutely maximum but locums shouldn't expect to get paid within 2 or 3 days as everyone else only gets paid once monthly.

Ian

Re: Invoicing as locum/pay concerns

James Laidlaw — Sun, 11 Sep 2011 21:41:56 GMT

[quote user="Ian Mostyn"]

I don't think getting paid as soon as you finish the locum is reasonable, the rest of the staff will have to wait for payday. If I liked the locum and wanted them back, I would pay within a week or so because it does take a few days to get things sorted and I think 14 days is reasonable as a maximum. Our practice manager isn't in every day and if it is the boss who has been off, it will take a few days to get caught up with all the paperwork. Saying that, any practice pushing it to 30 days is probably playing with their own cash flow for right or wrong reasons. The simplest thing is to agree in writing beforehand.

Ian

[/quote] All salaried staff get paid monthly/fortnightly etc for the work they have done up to the day they are paid. Locums have to wait 30 days? Tell me how that makes fair sense.

Re: Invoicing as locum/pay concerns

plantagenet — Sun, 11 Sep 2011 18:38:23 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]Don't forget as a locum you get no paid holiday, you have to pay your own tax and national insurance, accountancy fees, CPD, RCVS etc so this all has to be taken in to account when setting a daily[/quote]

I would be hardly likely to forget, I did it for many years and charged what I thought was reasonable - much less than they do now, even made up for inflation. Since there has been a growing band of what I call 'professional locums' - we were few and far between once - the prices and demand have gone up. The accounting for locums is trivial, they can offset all sorts of things against tax that employees can't, and they seem to expect to work exactly to suite them. That's fine but someone whose accounts are not simple and who is usually working for peanuts has to provide it for them. So I get very cross when I come back after a short holiday, usually in a damp tent, to fine the locum has moaned about everything and demanded stuff on the shelves that I manage without, usually for a very good economic reason.

I pay the going rate, in our neck of the woods £200-250 per day and variable on call rates. I then provide accommodation and sometimes vehicles as well. The locums invariably then swan off to their next exciting holiday somewhere I will never go, so they can cut the bleating about being poor - you should see the cars they drive!

Why do I do it - damn good question! When I was a locum I saw things I thought were good and things I thought I could do better and decided to try it myself. It has been a success but, boy, am I older and wiser now. I have heart to hearts with local businessmen clients in a way that I would never understood before, I share the pain of the local florist, corner shop and milkman as well as my fellow practice owning vets. I am seriously tempted to stand for parliament on a small business ticket, but would be somewhere to the right of Ghengis Khan.

I still maintain that half the profession cannot be locums unless they are happy for the other half to be corporates, goose, golden eggs etc. Next time you locum ask to see the practice books, it may be an eye opener.

Re: Invoicing as locum/pay concerns

Robin Grimmer — Sun, 11 Sep 2011 16:55:10 GMT

[quote user="plantagenet"]

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]If you treat your locums like monkeys... You get... Um.. Something to do with peanuts.[/quote]

I don't, I pay what I consider a ridiculous amount, I provide excellent accomodation and a lovely job in a nice little practice in a very pleasant part of the country. My local locums are excellent but don't want to cover holidays - the agency 'professional' locums are clinically ok but winge, moan and charge the earth.

[/quote]

I'd like to know how much you consider to be 'charging the earth'. Don't forget as a locum you get no paid holiday, you have to pay your own tax and national insurance, accountancy fees, CPD, RCVS etc so this all has to be taken in to account when setting a daily rate.

Re: Invoicing as locum/pay concerns

Ian Mostyn — Sun, 11 Sep 2011 14:50:12 GMT

Ian

Re: Invoicing as locum/pay concerns

Clive Ansell — Sun, 11 Sep 2011 08:05:04 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]What's a reasonable length of time to wait between invoicing for work and the invoice being paid - as a locum and without a union I don't know how to argue that I feel a month is far too long. Help/advice appreciated.

[/quote]

If you have no specific agreement, 30 days after the end of the locum or after submitting the invoice.

I always discuss and agree payment terms, along with all other terms and conditions, before taking the locum. I usually ask for payment within 7 days of finishing the locum, or monthly if a longer term. I find most practices fairly good and pay promptly with no problems.

If there are no pre agreed terms there is a legal default of 30 days within the late payment legislation, although you can agree shorter or longer terms if you wish. Under the same legislation, one can also charge interest and recovery costs if there are problems getting paid.

Late payment

Debt recover costs

Interest charges

Re: Invoicing as locum/pay concerns

patrick murphy — Sun, 11 Sep 2011 01:46:21 GMT

Sorry again, but I seem to be the locums' advocate. I always them as soon as they have finished their session/week.

Re: Invoicing as locum/pay concerns

Fiona French — Sat, 10 Sep 2011 21:21:46 GMT

I work as a locum and have always put ' Payment within 14 days of invoice please' on the bottom of the invoice, underneath my bank details. Most practices do pay fairly promptly, but a few take much longer, and I do not tend to nag unless it goes over a month.

I think it also depends how regularly you invoice them. If you invoice weekly you can probably afford to wait a little longer. For longer term locum positions I tend to invoice monthly as the practices find this easier, but if they then take a month to pay you are getting paid for some of the work you have done nearly 2 months later. I tend to agree to invoice monthly if they agree to pay within a week or two, and so far everyone has been happy with this.

The only time I have ever really had a problem with getting paid for a locum position was when I was working through a well known agency. They were one of the agencies who obtain payment from the practice and then pay the locum themselves. They got their payment from the practice and then made up a load of excuses about missing time sheets, sending the money to the wrong bank account etc, and I finally got paid 3 months later. I have avoided agencies since, and try to arrange all work by direct contact locally, as practices seem to be a lot more honest and easy to deal with than the agencies that promise to protect us from them!

Re: Invoicing as locum/pay concerns

plantagenet — Sat, 10 Sep 2011 18:22:48 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]If you treat your locums like monkeys... You get... Um.. Something to do with peanuts.[/quote]

Re: Invoicing as locum/pay concerns

James Laidlaw — Sat, 10 Sep 2011 17:58:36 GMT

[quote user="plantagenet"]

No, I'll just expect a perfect job, terms, pay, etc etc and let someone else sink life, soul and the family silver (I think I've said that before) into a business to provide it for me.

Sorry, bad week, not enough hours in the day, kids back to school badly neglected because their parents were stupid enough to be vets.

[/quote]

I think it goes both ways. I've worked for far too many clinics in the UK where the bosses literally don't care about their staff, just the money, and it's sad. Sure it can be tough to run a business, and far too many Veterinary clinics are run by people who don't know how, and can't be bothered employing someone who does, but the business has to look after the staff as much as the staff have to look after the business.

If you treat your locums like monkeys... You get... Um.. Something to do with peanuts.

Re: Invoicing as locum/pay concerns

plantagenet — Sat, 10 Sep 2011 17:47:42 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]It's not the employees fault if the management is difficult. That's up to management.[/quote]

No, I'll just expect a perfect job, terms, pay, etc etc and let someone else sink life, soul and the family silver (I think I've said that before) into a business to provide it for me.

Sorry, bad week, not enough hours in the day, kids back to school badly neglected because their parents were stupid enough to be vets.

Re: Invoicing as locum/pay concerns

Robin Grimmer — Sat, 10 Sep 2011 17:41:42 GMT

I would say within a month. As others have said, state your terms on the invoice. My regulars always pay promptly, but some of the corporates etc can be much slower at paying. I have occasionally had to phone up and nag them. If one is particularly slow at paying and I've had to chase up - then it would put me off working there again.

Re: Invoicing as locum/pay concerns

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 10 Sep 2011 16:44:55 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]It's not the employees fault if the management is difficult. [/quote]

Just having employees makes management difficult!

Re: Invoicing as locum/pay concerns

James Laidlaw — Sat, 10 Sep 2011 16:42:46 GMT

[quote user="plantagenet"]

I'm sorry, but just try running a practice in this climate. I do wish employees understand how bl**dy tough it is, I've had to my VAT on my credit card, because there were 10 other places to put the VAT when I collected it, oh, whoops, I mean I failed to plan in advance for the VAT bill. I've had locums shrug when its a quiet day and say, oh well, I don't mind, I'll get paid anyway. Sadly, usually it does get quieter when the boss is away.

[/quote]

It's not the employees fault if the management is difficult. That's up to management.

Re: Invoicing as locum/pay concerns

plantagenet — Sat, 10 Sep 2011 16:26:36 GMT

Re: Invoicing as locum/pay concerns

James Laidlaw — Sat, 10 Sep 2011 13:06:46 GMT

Cash flow should surely budget for the time worked by a locum, no? An employer would know how many days they've worked and how much they are charging to the employer, thus they must know how much an invoice is going to be? Plus the work is already done and clients have (hopefully) paid up, so the money should be there, no? Salaried staff get paid on the day for the month they've done, why can't that happen for locum staff? I've only had trouble with waiting more than a week with large corporates. Most practices (over 5-6 years locuming here) paid on the day by direct debit or within a week. Employers expect us to charge properly, work hard, and get the job done. It would seem hypocritical to me to then take 4 weeks to pay a locum - provided you're pulling your weight.

Re: Invoicing as locum/pay concerns

Mark Holmes — Sat, 10 Sep 2011 12:19:58 GMT

Understand cash flow and I realise that businesses are difficult things to run. But families have cash flow as well and if they run out of cash flow the children might starve.

I am playing devils advocate for the most part, but we have alot of discussion about veterinary prices recently and it did occur to me to wonder how many of the people complaining clients pushing for cheaper vet fees are either in a buying group or when faced with a rep would try to milk him/her for a "deal"

Its all business I know but.......

Re: Invoicing as locum/pay concerns

Bob Russell — Sat, 10 Sep 2011 11:59:09 GMT

I have to admit we wait 30 days to pay a locum agency but it is clear from their term and charges that this fairly expected. I would try to pay a locum more promptly if direct.

Cash flow is king and more businesses fail because of cash flow problems than lack of profit. As margins are slim in practice it does not surprise me that payment is required at the time and bills are paid at 30 days. We spent years living hand to mouth and some months (especially income tax months) not much has changed!

Re: Invoicing as locum/pay concerns

plantagenet — Sat, 10 Sep 2011 11:50:33 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]Isn't it funny how practices expect payment promptly yet expect 30 days to pay.[/quote]

Its not funny at all its called cash flow.

I try to pay asap after getting the invoice but would think 30d would not be unexpected. When I locummed, if I was skint, I would ask if I could be paid promtly.

Re: Invoicing as locum/pay concerns

Cat Henstridge — Sat, 10 Sep 2011 11:30:59 GMT

Hi,

I always write 'Please pay within 30 days' at the bottom of my invoices but the time it takes to pay tends to be entirely dependent on the practice; from being given a cheque at the end of the day to not getting paid for 6 weeks! If you go through an agency which pays you directly, and you get the invoice in on time, it tends to be a week in arrears.

A friend who is a locum nurse has been paid so late by one clinic that she dipped into her overdraft and was charged. She then billed those charges to the practice, who to their credit, paid up and were never late again!

I think the best thing to do would be to decide on your terms, write them on the invoice and then if the payment is late, send another one and a polite but firm reminder.

Cat

Re: Invoicing as locum/pay concerns

Mark Holmes — Sat, 10 Sep 2011 11:00:43 GMT

Isn't it funny how practices expect payment promptly yet expect 30 days to pay.