What owners want from their vets

Re: What owners want from their vets

Bob Russell — Mon, 12 Sep 2011 14:00:28 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]To talk about someone being exploited if paid under £30K smacks of rose-tinted spectacles[/quote]

Really? Full time work, plus on-call in some cases? Worked out per hour I pay more to my head nurse.

If that is the case then I give up.

[/quote]

My argument precisely. There will always be someone ready to work for that money and someone ready to exploit it. If I was a younger vet I suspect I would be looking elsewhere than the profession for my future.

Re: What owners want from their vets

Niall Taylor — Sat, 10 Sep 2011 18:19:10 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

PRICE. 22 mentions, inc: reasonable/fair prices; to recommend cheapest option; not to push for most expensive option; not to recommend treatment at any cost (which prolongs life not quality); fee transparency; manage expectations about costs; not to overcharge for routine meds; clear prescription policy, so owner knows they can source meds elswhere; provide info as to where to buy cheap meds; offer healthcare plans; to provide flea and worm tx at reasonable cost (not 3x elsewhere).
SERVICE WITH A SMILE. 11 mentions, of which roughly half were talking about the vet's bedside manner, and half talked about the importance of receptionists / nurses attitude.
DON'T PATRONISE / DUMB DOWN. 10 mentions, inc: don't treat like a half wit / moron!
KNOWLEDGEABLE. 9 mentions, noteably 5 of which wanted vets and nurses to be knowledgeable about pet nutrition and not just push the brands sold in that practice.
LISTEN. 9 mentions, of which two specifically said they wanted their vet to listen to their research on alternative meds (this may be to be expected amongst a group of pet owners giving opinions online??)
ACCURATE DIAGNOSIS/TREATMENT. 8 mentions.
CONTINUITY OF CARE (ie being seen by the same vet). 7 mentions.
24/7 / FLEXIBLE OPENING HOURS. 5 mentions.
HONESTY. 5 mentions.
TREAT INJURED WILDLIFE FOR FREE. 2 mentions.
Not to recommend euthanasia at first sign of terminal illness
Effort made to keep dogs, cats and small furries apart in waiting room
Clean premises
Written instructions for all meds, inc last dose given if hospitalised
Info about local pet taxis[/quote]

I can only quote David Horton from the Vicar of Dibley when he said "Yes, and I want Princess Anne to knock on my door and say, "I have dumped that ugly berk Tim Laurence; I'm all yours, big boy." But it's not going to happen, is it?"

Honestly, who are the idiots that reply to this sort of thing? Do they know nothing at all about business and real life - this sort of person would be happy to see their local practice go down the toilet just so they could get their metacam a couple of quid cheaper. And then doubtless, when the only vets in business are faceless, high sales pressure corporation monopolies we'd get all the sanctimonious hand-wringing we are getting now about 'evil' supermarkets when the very reason that they are where they are today is because no one will use the family shops anymore.

What jobs do these people have (if any) - when did you last hear a double glazing salesman giving you a quote then offering to give you a list of addresses for other companies which would be cheaper. Asking the price of a tin of beans at Sainsbury's, when were you last told that actually you'd be better off going to Tesco's cos they're so much cheaper, oh and would you like me to ring for a taxi so you can get there before they close?

Absolutely pathetic - 22 people wanting "cheaper" (no mention of "cost effective") and only 5 wanting "honest". And what are we supposed to do? Be all sympathetic, take their ridiculous views "on board", bankrupt ourselves and slash the pay of our employees in order to meet their unreasonable, blinkered expectations while still maintaining standards and greeting everyone of them with a smile on our lips and a song in our heart.

Already we are obliged following the competition comission enquiry to display list of our best selling drugs and to actually actively tell clients that they are entitled to ask for a prescription (which we had to provide for FREE for 3 years) rather than get the drugs from us and then we are obliged to bend over backwards to prove that we don't discriminate on price against anyone who takes up the offer. We aren't allowed to charge a mark-up on lab fees, instead we are allowed to put a lump sum on top so long as we reveal to all and sundry exactly what that sum is - you know, in the same way that all supermarkets tell you exactly how much they make on every packet of Astley Ainsley's cuppa-soop range (not!). It was only by a gnat's whisker that we didn't have to publish a list of mark-ups on everything else we sold. Give it time and we'll only be able to offer them the shirt off our backs if it is fair-trade, organic and comes from 'sustainable' source.

Thank goodness the only people who contribute to that sort of discussion are usually the ones who just want to have a rant.

No offense!

Niall

Re: What owners want from their vets

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 10 Sep 2011 18:13:54 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]To talk about someone being exploited if paid under £30K smacks of rose-tinted spectacles[/quote]

Really? Full time work, plus on-call in some cases? Worked out per hour I pay more to my head nurse.

If that is the case then I give up.

Re: What owners want from their vets

Richard Carter — Sat, 10 Sep 2011 17:46:39 GMT

So then as Evelyn mentioned, the 10y+ qualified go down to the next supermarket mall and open up and round we go again. Or they see the light and take up teaching.

P.S - anyone know what a biology teacher gets these days?? Saturday afternoon and sitting at the clinic for the 2nd time today and while my sister claimed teaching was sooo stressful, couldn't be worse than PTS a 1 year old labrador the other day with complicated pneumonia after KC where owner would not, absolutely not consider any other options despite all the staff crying their eyes out.

Re: What owners want from their vets

Bob Russell — Sat, 10 Sep 2011 11:45:48 GMT

As we are getting to the situation that more vets are being trained and lots of European vets are coming into the UK there is plenty of opportunity for vets to be paid £30K of less.

If progressively lower pay is required to fight for survival because a 'cheap/discount' practice has opened next door then that is what will happen. A decent employers will pay the most they can afford and a bad employer as little as they can get away with. Regretfully it looks as if both pay rates will be similar in the near future.

To talk about someone being exploited if paid under £30K smacks of rose-tinted spectacles (£23 for two at Spec-savers I understand). The profession is pushing prices down at the cost of its own viability.

Vets of 10years or more experience may soon be too expensive to employ. What fun!

Re: What owners want from their vets

Dagmar Steele — Sat, 10 Sep 2011 11:32:52 GMT

very true! I do the same with work experience students and I'm not quite sure if they believe how less some of us make even if they are self employed. Reading this post I have realised that I'm not only frustrated by low income but by the public opinion that every doc including a vet is b.... rich and just should stop complaining. Nonetheless how often I tell them how little some (most?) of us earn I get the feeling many don't believe what I say....

Re: What owners want from their vets

bob lehner — Sat, 10 Sep 2011 11:31:40 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]I probably am in the wrong practice, but there doesn't seem an easy way out at the moment. I suspect the partners realise that I am a bit trapped![/quote]

[quote user="Wren"]I see your point but on the back of a very bad week on top of which I have crippling sciatica and have drugs that will render me pain free but that I cannot take because they make me too woozy to drive (drove 185 work miles today) and have tried to take some time off but have been told to come in regardless...[/quote]

Having read these and some of your earlier posts it sounds as if you are in a nightmare job, being totally exploited by bosses who are living in the dark ages. If you are medically unfit to work then they can't make you do so !

Have you ever spoken to them about these issues - or do you just presume that they won't take any notice. ? It may be that they just don't realise how you feel. A heart to heart talk with them might just be worthwhile....?

In my experience lack of communication between bosses and staff is the root of many problems and frequently leads to festering discontent. In my opinion every member of staff should have an appraisal meeting with the bosses annually , in order to discuss issues from both sides of the fence. (PSS requires an annual performance review for all clinical staff).

Re: What owners want from their vets

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 10 Sep 2011 11:26:13 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]It did seem to me though that the people that can say 'we shouldn't be moaning about low wages' are the people with the luxury to do so ie. the ones who are earning enough to live comfortably.[/quote]

All vets should earn enough to live comfortably. Someone 10 years qualified should be on £40,000 +. If someone isn't then I have every sympathy, but I wouldn't work for that practice. I have no idea what you earn but if you're on less than £30,000, working full time plus OOH, then you are being exploited. And if the practice cannot afford to pay a decent wage for an assistant, then the partner(s) shouldn't have employed one!

That's my opinion anyway. Sorry!

Will I get a red star like last time?????????

[quote user="Wren"]I think we ought to be on a par with doctors and dentists[/quote]

And doctors should earn more than a stockbroker, but they don't. You pick the job and you take the wage. If anything could be improved, it is that the public, and therefore school leavers, should know what we earn. I take time to chat to my work experience students about the economics of practice, including salaries. If everyone did the same we'd start to make progress. Again, it is all about transparency.

Re: What owners want from their vets

Wren — Sat, 10 Sep 2011 10:34:00 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Wren"]Add to that the fact that my mother who's a librarian and my little brother who has a 3rd class degree and works for a cancer charity earn more than a >10yr qualified vet and perhaps you can forgive my cynicism[/quote]

You're in the wrong practice if that is the case - I'd love to offer advice but it sounds like you're in a predicament. I'd be curious what the partners are earning....

[/quote]

Forgive me if I sounded a little sharp last night. I suspect Friday nights are peak-disillusionment time! It did seem to me though that the people that can say 'we shouldn't be moaning about low wages' are the people with the luxury to do so ie. the ones who are earning enough to live comfortably. I never expected veterinary work to make me rich but I think we ought to be on a par with doctors and dentists - and those who were at university with me are earning 2-3x my current salary.

I probably am in the wrong practice, but there doesn't seem an easy way out at the moment. I suspect the partners realise that I am a bit trapped!

Re: What owners want from their vets

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 10 Sep 2011 08:27:02 GMT

[quote user="fluffygirl"]But I didn't have to work my arse off for 5 years and put my relationship in jeopardy in order to get the qualifications to do it, nor get into loads of debt.[/quote]

Neither of which are relevant to your clients or automatically entitle you to a high income. It was your choice.

[quote user="fluffygirl"]I would gladly do a monotonous job for double the pay if it meant I didn't have to work nights/weekends and got the time/money to indulge my hobbies and interests[/quote]

Go ahead then. For the next 30-40 years. Personally, no chance.

[quote user="fluffygirl"]Incidentally I've worked on supermarket checkouts and stacked shelves and its not that bad.[/quote]

Those weren't the type of jobs I was meaning, but nonetheless your comment surprises me. To earn the higher wage that you aspire to (??) you'd need to be working the checkout and stacking shelves for a lot of hours per week, including weekends and nights. Or have people forgotton that you can now go shopping at 2am and on Sundays?

Re: What owners want from their vets

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 10 Sep 2011 01:21:19 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"]

so where does this put the position of the profession when OOH care is now a business often with monopoly in the area and its pay X or PTS and the vet is an employee so cannot change the rules? gets back to the pub very quickly.

[/quote]

Ho ho, the astute practice in that area lets it be known that they do not contract out their OOH. Clients don't have to drive miles and miles to a strange place and see strange vets, they do have to pay a substantial OOH premium but not the whopping charges of OOH specialists: clients move to practice.

Employee vet who has built a following, can leave and put up plate four doors down.

Re: What owners want from their vets

fluffygirl — Fri, 09 Sep 2011 22:26:54 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Have any of you done a job you hate? Watched a relative do a really tough job for years with dreadful pay? A job that is monotonous in the extreme, working in dire conditions with no job satisfaction? If you was offered such a job, for double your current pay, would you take it?[/quote]

Yes to the first question. And for much less pay than I get now. And it sucks. But I didn't have to work my arse off for 5 years and put my relationship in jeopardy in order to get the qualifications to do it, nor get into loads of debt. I would gladly do a monotonous job for double the pay if it meant I didn't have to work nights/weekends and got the time/money to indulge my hobbies and interests. Incidentally I've worked on supermarket checkouts and stacked shelves and its not that bad.

Re: What owners want from their vets

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 09 Sep 2011 22:12:43 GMT

You're in the wrong practice if that is the case - I'd love to offer advice but it sounds like you're in a predicament. I'd be curious what the partners are earning....

Re: What owners want from their vets

Wren — Fri, 09 Sep 2011 22:01:07 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

Have any of you done a job you hate? Watched a relative do a really tough job for years with dreadful pay? A job that is monotonous in the extreme, working in dire conditions with no job satisfaction? If you was offered such a job, for double your current pay, would you take it?

There are plenty of very well paid jobs out there doing things that nobody else wants to do. Equally there are many people doing jobs they adore and are happy to make the sacrifice of pretty lousy pay. (Just ask some VNs). I get cheesed off hearing vets complain about their income when, frankly, if you don't like it then take your qualifications and get a different job.

[/quote]

I see your point but on the back of a very bad week on top of which I have crippling sciatica and have drugs that will render me pain free but that I cannot take because they make me too woozy to drive (drove 185 work miles today) and have tried to take some time off but have been told to come in regardless.... I'd frankly take Tescos at the moment. Please forgive me if the previous sentences had too many clauses to make sense but I came home and took max doses of all the drugs I've been prescribed and now don't give a fig for correct grammar!

Add to that the fact that my mother who's a librarian and my little brother who has a 3rd class degree and works for a cancer charity earn more than a >10yr qualified vet and perhaps you can forgive my cynicism, I love most of the things I do in my working day. I think I'm in the right profession but the wrong job!

Don't criticise all of those who moan about wages. Some of us are stuck where we are for personal/family reasons. It's easy to say 'take your qualifications and get a different job' but there aren't all that many jobs around in my particular area of veterinary work and most would involve uprooting my family to the other end of the country for the prospect of no more pay and having to job-hunt for my husband. In the current climate we just can't take that risk.

Re: What owners want from their vets

Bob Russell — Fri, 09 Sep 2011 17:25:57 GMT

Cheaper on-line pharmacies don't bother me too much and I will sometimes look to see if the owner is better off paying for a prescription and buying elsewhere.

I do consider my signature is of some value so I do charge for it and this charge fully compensates me for the time it takes to process the prescription. We have lost one client to the best of my knowledge because they wanted a cheaper vet. The new practice insists on more regular prescription checks as mine are based on the need of patient rather than practice protocol!

They will not save money by changing but it is not my place to tell them this!!

Re: What owners want from their vets

Cat Henstridge — Fri, 09 Sep 2011 15:59:09 GMT

I have read the thread with interest and thought on the whole it was very positive. What the posters want, in the main, is a vet who is nice to their pets, knowledgeable and discusses all the treatment options. It doesn't sound too bad.

The issue with cheaper drugs from the online pharmacies isn't going to go away and to be fair given that this is a website populated by people keen to save money, I thought most of the comments on that subject were relatively measured. The most passionate posts were about our (supposed) ignorance of pet nutrition from, quel surpise, a RBM enthusiast!

Re: What owners want from their vets

Bob Russell — Fri, 09 Sep 2011 14:45:50 GMT

Dead right I would work in a job I hated for double the money. It would help replace some of the money that has haemorrhaged from my so called pension!

Re: What owners want from their vets

plantagenet — Fri, 09 Sep 2011 14:40:34 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Have any of you done a job you hate? Watched a relative do a really tough job for years with dreadful pay? A job that is monononous in the extreme, working in dire conditions with no job satisfaction? If you was offered such a job, for double your current pay, would you take it?[/quote]

Yes I have, sometimes I still do. And yes I would frankly, but its been a bad week.

Re: What owners want from their vets

Bob Russell — Fri, 09 Sep 2011 14:16:03 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"]

[/quote]

If there is a monopoly it will be as a result of other options being economically not viable. There are very few businesses that will work for similar amounts of money in the middle of the night. Ask how much a plumber will charge at 3am!

If it was profitable to work overnight I am sure the cheap clinics would open 24/7. It is not so they close at night.

Re: What owners want from their vets

Richard Carter — Fri, 09 Sep 2011 14:09:41 GMT

Re: What owners want from their vets

Bob Russell — Fri, 09 Sep 2011 13:53:37 GMT

I have given you 5 stars as well because I don't disagree either. My income is fine thank you. I am not rich nor am I poor.

If I was a more recent graduate with the prospect of working 5 minute appointments for an hourly rate at Tesco I probably would disagree! The concerns are more directed towards the future of the profession and the direction it is going in.

How many of the stress factors for younger vets are related to income (or lack of it)? Is it going to improve, stay the same or get tougher in the future? Scary!

Re: What owners want from their vets

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 09 Sep 2011 13:25:23 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

Have any of you done a job you hate? Watched a relative do a really tough job for years with dreadful pay? A job that is monononous in the extreme, working in dire conditions with no job satisfaction? If you was offered such a job, for double your current pay, would you take it?

[/quote]

I see some miserable sod gave you a red star Gilian so just to show I don't always disagree with you I've given you 5 gold to even it out. My experience is that most clients want an honest job done at a reasonable price in a caring and professional environment. As Abraham Lincoln was (wrongly) quoted as saying: 'you can't please all of the people all of the time'. I enjoy my job and do it the way I think is best for the patient and try to make a decent living from it, if someone doen't like that tough shit.

Re: What owners want from their vets

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 09 Sep 2011 11:59:03 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]'Reasonable / fair' and 'transparent' were the most often used words in relation to pricing. They weren't saying 'don't make any money'. The biggest problem seemed to me to be when owners find they could have bought the prescribed drug for 1/3rd of the price (or so they say) elsewhere. Esp. flea and worm treatments.[/quote]

What is a 'reasonable' margin to make? Take Metacam 180ml oral suspension online for £16.99, free delivery if I spend >£25 ie buy 2 bottles. List price is more than £10 more. Put a modest 50% on list and you sell it for £40 + vat = £48 and people think we are money grabbing.

When clothes shops have a 70% off sale they are still making money.

Re: What owners want from their vets

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 09 Sep 2011 11:48:37 GMT

Re: What owners want from their vets

Clive Ansell — Fri, 09 Sep 2011 11:10:34 GMT

You're not wrong Bob. seriously, their hourly rate for night work isn't that far removed from working in some OOH centres,