pet passport rules pointless?

Re: pet passport rules pointless?

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 28 Jul 2014 12:38:50 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]That would be because in this post 9/11 era they are quite hot on trying to ensure everyone on board an aeroplane is present and correct and who they say they are[/quote] I doubt if the dog's passport would tell you if it had been indoctrinated as a Muslim Jihadist even if it was called Mohammed! And a bomb in Shuttle with the subsequent fire could cause quite a bit of carnage, plus it would be no more difficult to take over the bridge of a ferry than an aeroplane, possibly easier

Re: pet passport rules pointless?

Wren — Mon, 28 Jul 2014 11:35:33 GMT

[quote user="SilverstarDJ"]

Why is it that passports (for people & dogs) are not checked if you drive to France, but they would almost certainly check your passport if you were to fly to France?

[/quote]

That would be because in this post 9/11 era they are quite hot on trying to ensure everyone on board an aeroplane is present and correct and who they say they are

Re: pet passport rules pointless?

Derek Lyon — Thu, 24 Jul 2014 18:49:34 GMT

So very interesting the comments made since I reopened this thread! When we left Portsmouth for St Malo all our passports including our dog were checked. They handed us the scanner and first time it did not work so another scanner handed over which this time DID work. Once on board the ship we had to leave our dog in the car...albeit with all windows open. It caused us some concern but we needed not to have worried for some 10 hours later and with a full bladder he was fine. On the return journey from Caen to Portsmouth they checked both our and dogs passport at check in on the quayside. This time a bit shorter for him to be in the car. On entry to UK at Portsmouth they were only interested in our passport although they did hand us a scanner! We were only worried about customs a few yards further on! I do feel however that it would be easy to take an animal out of the country and into the country without problems. If caught however no doubt animal would be confiscated and the what?

We did ensure that our og's advocate up to date prior and also gave advantix prior as well. Manufacturers recommended that advantix be given every 2 weeks whilst in France. Interval between Advocate and Advantix was asked about and various opinions given! Between 2 weeks and 2 days.

Looking forward to next trip to France although will be Eire soon so we do not need to worry???

Re: pet passport rules pointless?

Rob Loxley — Thu, 24 Jul 2014 17:56:46 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]It struck me that one rabies vaccine stated in its data sheet that it can be given from 6 weeks and therefore in theory the passport could be completed at 9 weeks. Thinking this could be a legal loophole I spoke to DEFRA who confirmed that for PETS regulations it cannot be given before 12 weeks so 15 is the minimum age before these pups can be imported.[/quote]

This seems to be a source of confusion: Defra website states "Most vaccines can only be used on animals over 3 months old". The EU Regulation currently says vaccines must be administered in line with their licence. Nobivac/Canigen Rabies in the UK says "Primary vaccination age* 3 months or older; * Primary vaccination may be administered at an earlier age (minimum in dogs and cats of 4 weeks of age), but then a repeat vaccination must be given at the age of 3 months." further to which Defra tell me that the 21 day wait runs from the completion of the primary course which in this case is still 3 months old. Confusingly Nobivac Rabies in Ireland has the extra proviso that if the dam was unvaccinated, the primary course is a single injection from 4 weeks of age so they can travel from 7 weeks!
Changes are coming into effect this December including a new blanket minimum age of 12 weeks for rabies vaccination which may clear things up.
Not to mention that some EU countries (e.g. Netherlands) will allow the import of young animals under 3 months old from Rabies-free countries without any rabies vaccination...

[quote user="ruths"]The thing that worries me the most is the puppies that come over in the vans[/quote]

Strictly traders should not be using the Pet Travel Scheme, but the rabies controls are the same I believe (http://www.defra.gov.uk/ahvla-en/imports-exports/balai-directive/)

The recent BVA/Defra webinar (http://www.thewebinarvet.com/bva-webinars/) was interesting particularly the new changes coming, but depressingly Defra seemed to just accept that certain checks e.g. the 21 day wait before leaving the UK are not well enforced and this is unlikely to change, despite the new passport!

Re: pet passport rules pointless?

Sammy82 — Thu, 24 Jul 2014 14:26:25 GMT

My understanding is that you can do a first vaccine at 5/6 weeks (according to datasheet), if indicated e.g. in a country where rabies is endemic. For Passport purposes though you have to give a second vaccine at 12 weeks, and the 3 weeks wait starts from then. So either way a puppy can not travel under PETS below 15months of age.

Re: pet passport rules pointless?

James Laidlaw — Thu, 24 Jul 2014 13:21:10 GMT

I spoke to DEFRA/PETS and the vaccine manufacturers. Another case of being glad it was a nice client who understood what had happened, what I was trying to do and wanted the best for her dog. I still don't understand how the same vaccine can be marketed with different age limits/data sheets just because it's in a a different country. Then again, 28 day discards don't make a great deal of sense either!!!

Re: pet passport rules pointless?

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 24 Jul 2014 12:33:47 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]That's the opposite of what I was told with a dog from Ireland recently, where the Irish data sheet differs from the UK one - FOR THE SAME VACCINE - provided the bitch was vaccinated (or unvaccinated - having a slow brain day, can't remember) and that if the vet in Ireland has signed it then that's all the assurance we need to ensure that the vaccine was done correctly and thus the dog can be here and the vaccine given under 12 weeks of age was valid for at least a year!!!!!!!!!! After discussing with the owner we did a booster at 3 months.[/quote] Was this information from DEFRA? My contact there was absolutely adamant that it is UK regulations that count not those of the originating country. The rabies vaccine at 12 weeks minimum and 3 week delay are absolutely sacrosanct.

Of course given this is an import from Ireland with some fairly loosely interpreted regulations you are talking about the so risk is minimal but that is not the point

The important thing is that if in doubt you should report it and it is then up to Trading Standards to decide if there is a case to answer or not. Don't forget that whoever signed the document it is YOU taking the risk both personally and professionally in this country if you ignore it.

Re: pet passport rules pointless?

No Name — Thu, 24 Jul 2014 12:02:26 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

There are so many ways for this system to be abused it is ridicuolous. Until I went on holiday I was one of the people who felt that the relaxation of the passport rules is a mistake. I've now realised that if our experience is typical (I hope it isn't) then there is no point relying on any procedures being carried out properly outside of the UK in order to keep the UK disease free.

[/quote]

Why is it that passports (for people & dogs) are not checked if you drive to France, but they would almost certainly check your passport if you were to fly to France? It's probably cheaper not to check everyone, but if not every single person/animal goes through security, then there will always be a potential to smuggle something through the system. It probably isn't too difficult to hide a quiet dog in the boot of the car with no one noticing.

It's also probably quite easy to get some falsely certified paperwork to get a dog into the UK for a bit of money in some countries. I once read a book based on a factual account and the dog got transported to the UK (from a non EU country) without ever so much as seeing a vet.

On the other hand it's probably very difficult to create a system where there isn't any scope for abuse and one that isn't too expensive...

Re: pet passport rules pointless?

James Laidlaw — Thu, 24 Jul 2014 11:34:57 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="ruths"]The thing that worries me the most is the puppies that come over in the vans. They are supposed to be rabies vaccinated but are clearly too young. This situation is pretty grim and it's only going to get worse IMO

[/quote]Seen two already, both from Lithuania, both reported to local Trading Standards (for us this is City of London which is based at the Animal Reception Centre at Heathrow 10 minutes away so possibly a bit more pro-active) who took it very seriously and acted within an hour. Both were about 3 months old, vaccinated against rabies with a Lithuanian issued passport.

It struck me that one rabies vaccine stated in its data sheet that it can be given from 6 weeks and therefore in theory the passport could be completed at 9 weeks. Thinking this could be a legal loophole I spoke to DEFRA who confirmed that for PETS regulations it cannot be given before 12 weeks so 15 is the minimum age before these pups can be imported.

[/quote] That's the opposite of what I was told with a dog from Ireland recently, where the Irish data sheet differs from the UK one - FOR THE SAME VACCINE - provided the bitch was vaccinated (or unvaccinated - having a slow brain day, can't remember) and that if the vet in Ireland has signed it then that's all the assurance we need to ensure that the vaccine was done correctly and thus the dog can be here and the vaccine given under 12 weeks of age was valid for at least a year!!!!!!!!!! After discussing with the owner we did a booster at 3 months.

Re: pet passport rules pointless?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 24 Jul 2014 11:02:14 GMT

Angiostrongylus. We were shocked 10/15 years ago to find it had become established in the area without anybody realising - probably because we'd all been misdiagnosing as either ordinary pneumonias, or warfarin poisonings until the Neath practice discovered we had it!

Wynne

Re: pet passport rules pointless?

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 24 Jul 2014 10:26:26 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

No-one would say that exotic diseases were "nice" if they were unfortunete enough to work in Swansea - and have a disease which my parasitology textbook referred to as "occurring in the South of France, and southern states of the USA" absolutely rampant. It's not nice - it's absolutely tragic.

Wynne

[/quote]OK don't keep us in suspense - what is it? Or am I just being slow on the uptake?

Re: pet passport rules pointless?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 24 Jul 2014 09:23:23 GMT

Wynne

Re: pet passport rules pointless?

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 24 Jul 2014 09:16:44 GMT

Re: pet passport rules pointless?

ruths — Wed, 23 Jul 2014 23:58:08 GMT

The thing that worries me the most is the puppies that come over in the vans. They are supposed to be rabies vaccinated but are clearly too young. This situation is pretty grim and it's only going to get worse IMO

Re: pet passport rules pointless?

Gareth C. — Sun, 20 Jul 2014 21:23:18 GMT

In the days of tick treatment I had client who had done all the right things for the dog, got home and found a big fat french tick on his own leg

Re: pet passport rules pointless?

Richard Carter — Sun, 20 Jul 2014 10:45:19 GMT

We have just had a confirmed Leishmania case after holiday to Spain. The current recommendations from the Spanish vets who see this disease regularly involve initiating treatment with Glucantime, not currently available in the UK. Anyway long story but my wholesaler was unwilling to get some, was given the name of another drug company who would order 5 vials for an amount in excess of £300 (dog needs 15 vials).

Anyhow VMD very understanding and after SIC etc obtained, it cost about 45 euros for the 15 vials. Rip-off Britain??

Then thought someone might be interested so looked up the old DAKTARI site, the Defra site and every other site I could think of but apparently no-one wants to know what is coming over.

Re: pet passport rules pointless?

Rob Loxley — Sat, 19 Jul 2014 21:14:01 GMT

[quote user="Derek Lyon"]I paid 38 euros[/quote]

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]We paid just under £50 for the consultation and meds.[/quote]

Heck, we're clearly charging far to little to give a milbemax and fill in the passport!

Re: pet passport rules pointless?

Laurence Webb — Sat, 19 Jul 2014 20:16:01 GMT

[quote user="Derek Lyon"]The vet sounded his heart, stamped, dated and signed passport and asked me to give tapeworm tablet the following day[/quote]

I had one a couple of weeks ago that had been given the tablet by a vet to administer themselves whilst abroad. They forgot and, when in for an unrelated problem, asked me if they should still give the tablet. Dog untreated but paperwork fine.

Re: pet passport rules pointless?

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 19 Jul 2014 17:47:20 GMT

Most border control issues rely on honesty with random checks and risk based checks. I don't expect to be grilled in depth by customs each time I go abroad. I'm not sure the dog should either.

Re: pet passport rules pointless?

Derek Lyon — Sat, 19 Jul 2014 17:40:26 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

We took one of our dogs to France with us this summer. It has opened my eyes somewhat to how our French vet approached the pet passport scheme.

On the way out on Dover-Calais ferry - nobody checked anything at all.

We made an appointment with a vets in Amboise, Loire valley, for 10am the day before we are due to sail back at 6pm. The vet was insistent that the meds should be given within 24hrs of travelling and wanted to write a later time in the passport than our dog was actually medicated. He wouldn't believe us when we told him to write the correct time, as that was why we'd made the appointment then, and finally relented after looking up the scheme details himself!

We realised as we drove home from the practice that our dog was never scanned.

We paid just under £50 for the consultation and meds.

At the ferry on the way home we told the girl on the desk that we had a dog with us and she simply passed us a scanner, asked us to scan our own pet and then she checked the passport against the number. It was impossible for her to know that we had a dog with us, or even how many we had in the car, from her position. The car was not checked after this at all.

[/quote]

I realise that Gillian posted this almost 3 years ago but to avoid starting a new thread I want to add my recent experiences! Our dog was born in France and came over on his passport albeit with wrong ID chip number written in long hand by the Frence Vet. Anyway we have taken him abroad twice since and last year the Vet doing import part noticed the wrong ID chip number and altered it to be same as the chip number albeit having one digit ommited. This year we went to France again this time by ferry and dog was checked on way out. We were given chip reader to do it our selves and then hand back to passport control. On way home we had him examined some 48 hours prior to arrival back in UK. The vet sounded his heart, stamped, dated and signed passport and asked me to give tapeworm tablet the following day! I told Vet to administer the tablet herself which she then did! I paid 38 euros and left. Again on arrival at port of departure we were asked to read the chip whilst sat in car and then hand it back. Thoughts?

Derek

Re: pet passport rules pointless?

Stephen Courtney — Sat, 13 Aug 2011 13:29:43 GMT

I also do quarantine work, did my training in Africa (was exposed to rabies infected animals twice in that time) and have had a load of rabies shots over the years. Pretty much decided enough at this point. Especially as quarantine is coming to an end.

I passported my own dog but she turned out to be lavishly car sick, so I decided against travelling with her. Will I be topping her rabies up - not as things stand. Even if rabies was endemic here her risk of contact with a carrier would be so low as to be negligible ( agoraphobic neurotic that hates other dogs - a serious embarrassment for a vet!) so I'm not worried.

The biggest risk with third country pets is going to be rescued street dogs and cats, rather than much loved pets relocating with their owners. People in rabies endemic countries do vaccinate their pets against rabies - it's usually mandatory - so pets are unlikely to be a problem, especially as they will still have to pass a blood test and wait 3 months - most rabies cases manifest in less than 3 months anyway. The 6 month quarantine rule was always a compromise.

Re: pet passport rules pointless?

Bob Russell — Sat, 13 Aug 2011 10:42:17 GMT

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]

No, it would be scaremongering. After all, have you had a rabies course yourself, because you work with animals in the UK?

But I have had clients ask for a rabies vaccine 'in case' - I obliged, but it wasn't my idea!

[/quote]

Actually yes I have had rabies shots but not for the last few years as I have worked in quarantine premises. The vaccinations are protective for a good number of years and I have to admit I feel a little more comfortable having had them done.

Scaremongering or offering choice? Depends on how it is phrased. The UK is not the same as Europe nor are the risks. Pets are routinely vaccinated against rabies throughout the continent. Ours are not.

By following the European 'low risk' rules and with pets potentially coming from third world countries with a short waiting period I suspect we are going to be at more risk than the French for example. How great the risk is, of course debatable but I for one will be vaccinating my dogs and cats for rabies.

Re: pet passport rules pointless?

Stephen Courtney — Fri, 12 Aug 2011 22:03:57 GMT

No, it would be scaremongering. After all, have you had a rabies course yourself, because you work with animals in the UK?

But I have had clients ask for a rabies vaccine 'in case' - I obliged, but it wasn't my idea!

Re: pet passport rules pointless?

Bob Russell — Fri, 12 Aug 2011 09:43:17 GMT

Somewhat tongue in cheek we have been discussing (over coffee) whether we should be suggesting local pets be vaccinated against rabies! As we are on the south coast and near a number of marinas could we be justified in suggesting it?

Re: pet passport rules pointless?

Louise6732 — Thu, 11 Aug 2011 22:51:44 GMT

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]On the plus side veterinary life is a lot more interesting with some nice juicy formerly exotic arthropod-borne diseases to have to contend with.[/quote]