Riots

Re: Riots

Bob Russell — Mon, 22 Aug 2011 10:04:06 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

In that case why didn't returning WW11 servicemen cause a crime wave ?

Definitely need more of a can-do mentality, and a society where hard work is rewarded, and bad behaviour seen tobe punished

Wynne

[/quote]

There was a crime wave following WWII. There were mobs of 'free-range' kids using all the bomb sites as playgrounds. Discipline was strong and often forceful but don't kid yourselves that all was rosy.There were many severely damaged people around.

Government used the promise of a wonderful future with free healthcare and new housing to keep a traumatised population under some kind of control. Poverty was extreme in some ways but rationing kept food supplies available. No point in looting shops as they were empty!

Foraging in bomb damaged areas was widespread.

I suspect people were too busy trying to survive to waste their time with riots.

Re: Riots

Richard Carter — Mon, 22 Aug 2011 09:38:40 GMT

Problem with aspiration but no possible chance to fulfil it is that when the idea has soured, it is easier to spend your life playing computer games and throwing a brick through a window. In this country you cannot just open up a back-yard motor mechanic shop or even sell sandwiches without all sorts of legal aspects being thrown back at you. There are only so many call centres left in UK.

Re: Riots

Mark Hedberg — Sun, 21 Aug 2011 20:37:56 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Richard Carter"] How does one 'teach' aspiration? [/quote]

Well, one could start by just teaching. The education system of this country has been wrecked. As some columnist has remarked quite recently, "teaching a child to read and write is not difficult or expensive. Much poorer countries manage to do it".

[/quote]

Ironic, that statement. :p

Re: Riots

Edward Jones — Sat, 20 Aug 2011 19:27:00 GMT

[quote user="i am ed"]That's not to say that copyright infringement isn't 'wrong'[/quote]

[quote user="plantagenet"]Oh, Silly me - it's ok then is it?[/quote]

???

Re: Riots

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 20 Aug 2011 18:45:55 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"] How does one 'teach' aspiration? [/quote]

Re: Riots

Clive Ansell — Sat, 20 Aug 2011 17:14:47 GMT

[quote user="plantagenet"]

[quote user="Clive Ansell"] It is the avaricious parasitic shite at the top that needs targeting![/quote]

It's both - it is much the same attitude: "I want it, therefore I shall have it, and someone else must give it too me"

I see it in all levels of society from top to bottom.

I amazed one of my clients, a nice, hard working, good client, by refusing to borrow a pirated DVD, on the ground that it was theft. It would not have occured to her to refuse what was offered, she justified it by saying she was not the one who had made the copy.

[/quote]

Yes and no.

I agree, knowingly selling or buying a pirated DVD amounts to theft ( I'm not a lawyer, so i don't know whether it is technically theft, but it amounts to the same thing), but there is a world of difference in severity and morality between someone without much money selling a £3 dodgy DVD and the boss of a failed taxpayer owned bank being paid (by us) £9.6million a year.

Re: Riots

plantagenet — Sat, 20 Aug 2011 11:37:24 GMT

[quote user="i am ed"]Copyright infringement is not theft.[/quote]

Oh, Silly me - it's ok then is it?

As far as I'm concerned, it is theft of intellectual property.

As I've told my children, if you find something in the street and you don't know whose it is, the one thing you can be d*** sure of is it isn't yours!

Re: Riots

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 20 Aug 2011 09:09:13 GMT

Exactly So if copyright hadn't been infringed then some would have done without-others would have bought-so there would have been a sale

Wynne

Re: Riots

Edward Jones — Sat, 20 Aug 2011 09:05:11 GMT

If copyright is infringed there is no sale, hence no "small percentage" for the copyright holder to take. That's not to say that copyright infringement isn't 'wrong', but it's not "permanently depriving".

Re: Riots

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 20 Aug 2011 09:02:46 GMT

Actually it is-because the owners of the copyright are legally entitled to a small% of every sale

Wynne

Re: Riots

Edward Jones — Sat, 20 Aug 2011 08:51:11 GMT

Re: Riots

plantagenet — Sat, 20 Aug 2011 08:23:38 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"] It is the avaricious parasitic shite at the top that needs targeting![/quote]

It's both - it is much the same attitude: "I want it, therefore I shall have it, and someone else must give it too me"

I see it in all levels of society from top to bottom.

Re: Riots

Clive Ansell — Fri, 19 Aug 2011 20:03:57 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Wouldn't it be bliss to only pay half the current level of taxation, instead of being robbed to give over generous benefits to scroungers-they had unemployment pay in the 20s and 30s. Nobody starved, but it was low enough they had an incentive to work

Wynne

[/quote]

Wynne - you've been reading the Daily Mail again . the single largest cost to the taxpayer is the bailout of the banking crisis- £840 billion or £15000 for every person in the UK (assuming population of 56 million). Far outstrips the annual cost of benefits. It is the avaricious parasitic shite at the top that needs targeting!

Re: Riots

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 19 Aug 2011 17:48:43 GMT

Actually when I was trying to find out about crime statistics, I googled it and found a document published by the Government on trends for all sorts of things throughout the 20thC One of the figures was Government expenditure. It was corrected to 1995 values to eliminate the effect of inflation Government expenditure in 1940/45 (with a world war on ) was £150billion (1995values ) By the end of the century it was £300 billion (in peace time ) Wouldn't it be bliss to only pay half the current levelof taxation, instead of being robbed to give over generous benefits to scroungers-they had unemployment pay in the 20s and 30s. Nobody starved, but it was low enough they had an incentive towork

Wynne

Re: Riots

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 19 Aug 2011 16:44:37 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"]

How does one 'teach' aspiration? How does one get the American / Australian attitude of 'can do' rather than 'it is someone else's fault/ responsibility'? Reduce the social safety net? Have heros to emulate? create an opening to dive through by education/ apprenticeships/start-up grants? reduce the red tape that gets in the way of (legal) aspirations/ innovations?

[/quote]

It does seem like the UK has no positive role models these days. Is it unfashionable?

Re: Riots

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 19 Aug 2011 16:06:24 GMT

[quote user="i am ed"]Personally I think corporal or excessive punishment (such as merely punitive prison terms) acts more to encourage 'not getting caught' next time, rather than to encourage 'following of the rules' next time.[/quote]

Isn't 'not getting caught' half the battle?

Seriously, quite a thought-provoking comment. I don't think it's quite that black and white. I think the decision as to whether to reoffend, so to speak, is about BOTH the risk of being caught, AND the severity of the consequences if I am caught.

Re: Riots

Thomas Johnson — Fri, 19 Aug 2011 15:12:55 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

In that case why didn't returning WW11 servicemen cause a crime wave ?

[/quote]

Perhaps because the country needed totally rebuilding and there was no shortage of jobs. Also because the returning servicemen would have been seen as heroes by the rest of the population, whereas now most people are at best ambivalent and at worst opposed to, the conflicts our armed forces are involved with.

[quote]

Definitely need more of a can-do mentality, and a society where hard work is rewarded, and bad behaviour seen tobe punished

[/quote]

No arguement with that! But I'm not yet persuaded by any of the arguements I've heard of how to achieve it.

Re: Riots

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 19 Aug 2011 14:01:12 GMT

In that case why didn't returning WW11 servicemen cause a crime wave ?

Definitely need more of a can-do mentality, and a society where hard work is rewarded, and bad behaviour seen tobe punished

Wynne

Re: Riots

Richard Carter — Fri, 19 Aug 2011 13:22:04 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"] former miitary personnel find it hard to adjust to civilian life and may make up a significant proportion of the prison population[/quote]

Servicemen/women in UK armed forced these days will tend to have been at the pointy end repeatedly with very intense personal experiences so the reality of civilian life where the thrill is no longer there along with some very specific training may make crime quite attractive. Doesn't necessarily reflect on their self discipline, more a reflection on where they view their position in society. How does one 'teach' aspiration? How does one get the American / Australian attitude of 'can do' rather than 'it is someone else's fault/ responsibility'? Reduce the social safety net? Have heros to emulate? create an opening to dive through by education/ apprenticeships/start-up grants? reduce the red tape that gets in the way of (legal) aspirations/ innovations?

Re: Riots

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 19 Aug 2011 12:49:04 GMT

It's because people from countries without a welfare system (or a much less generous one in the case of some EEC countries ) have a better work ethic that they have taken upmost of the new jobs created by the coalition-so the overall number idle is increasing despite more jobs That's an idea-reduce our welfare levels for everyone under 65 to equal the lowest in the EECand export our scroungers-human rights can't do a thing without prosecuting other EEC countries as well

Wynne

Re: Riots

Thomas Johnson — Fri, 19 Aug 2011 12:12:49 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"]

My opinions - Boys respond to authority and immediate discipline including pain and the threat of pain. Military (conscripted) service being a case in point where many didn't want to be there but after a few months of PT, early hour wake-ups, strict rules with consequences, people from incredibly diverse backgrounds ranging from privileged right down the scale to left school due to age not academic ability seemed to be able to cope, most learning the rules of being an adult in society and getting the self discipline/ pride required for further education/ work.

[/quote]

There is a growing amount of research that shows that former miitary personnel find it hard to adjust to civilian life and may make up a significant proportion of the prison population, an interesting article on the BBC website:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/8781382.stm

Re: Riots

Richard Carter — Fri, 19 Aug 2011 11:55:43 GMT

Girls are more likely to respond to reason where they don't want to make enemies with the teacher; if the peer pressure is greater to be a rebel then ??? Starvation/ deprivation or the real threat of such is a great motivator but also makes for better organised gangs and criminals. People from countries where the welfare system is absent tend to have a very good work ethic if they can get a job as there is a reality of slums if you don't.

Re: Riots

Glen McIntosh — Fri, 19 Aug 2011 11:27:04 GMT

Saw this on FB recently:

The Looters Prayer

Our father, who art in prison
Only Mum knows his name
Thy riots come, read it in The Sun
In Birmingham as it is in London
Give us this day our welfare bread
And forgive us our looting
As we're happy to loot those who defend stuff against us
Lead us not into employment,
But deliver us free housing
For thine is the spliff, the Blackberry and the lager,
For ever and ever................innit

Re: Riots

Edward Jones — Fri, 19 Aug 2011 10:42:45 GMT

It has been suggested that corporal punishment can lead to reduced self discipline. I think the specific example is two neighbouring African schools - generally very similar, except one used extensive corporal punishment and the other did not. I'm trying to find the reference. For now here's a quote from an article about the paper.

[quote]The study – by Prof. Victoria Talwar of McGill University, Prof. Stephanie M. Carlson of the University of Minnesota, and Prof. Kang Lee of the University of Toronto, involved 63 children in kindergarten or first grade at two West African private schools. Their families lived in the same urban neighborhood. The parents were largely civil servants, professionals and merchants.

In one school, discipline in the form of beating with a stick, slapping of the head, and pinching was administered publicly and routinely for offenses ranging from forgetting a pencil to being disruptive in class. In the other school, children were disciplined for similar offenses with the use of time-outs and verbal reprimands.

While overall performance on the executive-functioning tasks was similar in the younger children from both schools, the Grade 1 children in the non-punitive school scored significantly higher than those in the punitive school. These results are consistent with research findings that punitive discipline may make children immediately compliant – but may reduce the likelihood that they will internalize rules and standards. That, in turn, may result in lower self-control as children get older.

“This study demonstrates that corporal punishment does not teach children how to behave or improve their learning,” Prof. Talwar said. “In the short term, it may not have any negative effects; but if relied upon over time it does not support children's problem-solving skills, or their abilities to inhibit inappropriate behaviour or to learn.”[/quote]

Personally I think corporal or excessive punishment (such as merely punitive prison terms) acts more to encourage 'not getting caught' next time, rather than to encourage 'following of the rules' next time.

Re: Riots

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 18 Aug 2011 16:57:43 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]maybe prison should be a harsh regime, and a place people are really frightened of (it is a punishment after all)?[/quote]

I think so. I went to school at a time when corporal punishment was the norm.

I was only caned once!