Giving clients Oxytocin for in pup bitches.

Re: Giving clients Oxytocin for in pup bitches.

David Mills — Wed, 17 Aug 2011 00:30:48 GMT

Sod the RCVS, it has nothing to do with them - it is a criminal act under the Animal Welfare Act, and there is no breach of client confidentiality. Nothing to do with VDS either. People like that need prosecuting and bloody well banning, and the quickest way to do so is ring the RSPCA. He/she would give up the other breeder's name pretty sharpish I reckon, and the RSPCA love cases as clear cut as these when a vet is reporting the suffering directly. Can you imagine the suffering from rupturing your own uterus?

It does alarm me rather that with SA breeders we may well be headed into horsey territory.

Re: Giving clients Oxytocin for in pup bitches.

Bob Russell — Tue, 16 Aug 2011 15:52:12 GMT

I would not bother with Belgravia House but would pass it by Vet Defence before committing anything to paper.

We are allowed (and arguably are obliged) to report serious criminal acts and this includes neglect and cruelty. I would rather take the small risk of having to justify my actions to a disciplinary committee rather than live with allowing unacceptable behaviour to go unchallenged.

Re: Giving clients Oxytocin for in pup bitches.

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 16 Aug 2011 13:05:27 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

I would have phoned RCVS requesting permission to report the owner Problem is, I might not have got it

Wynne

[/quote]

Wynne, you don't have to gain Belgravia House permission to report something you think should be reported. That is a myth.

Re: Giving clients Oxytocin for in pup bitches.

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 16 Aug 2011 10:04:47 GMT

I would have phoned RCVS requesting permission to report the owner Problem is, I might not have got it

Wynne

Re: Giving clients Oxytocin for in pup bitches.

Tracey Kernaghan — Mon, 15 Aug 2011 15:44:06 GMT

I also have come across an also identical situation. A first time breeder was given oxytocin to administer by another breeder when she asked for advice. Unfortunately, in this case, I opened the dog up to find the uterus had already ruptured. My nurses and I were very distressed but the owner refused to name the other breeder.

Re: Giving clients Oxytocin for in pup bitches.

Jacquin Mitchell — Thu, 04 Aug 2011 15:43:20 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

Yes. for example if you visit someones home today, and the animal you vaccinate becomes ill later in the day or tonight, what happens? you must have a good working relationship with local practices?

I've no problem with a visiting vet service, seems a good idea but was just wondering how you provide 24/7 cover and deal with any emergencies?

One of the Birmingham practice groups used to (may still do) run a visiting vet service, but I could never see how it was financially viable. Some days, myself and a driver used to do only 4 home visits and spend most of the day in traffic jams -revenue generated would not even cover my locum fees -seemed a waste of money to pay a vet to drive around the midlands all day.

[/quote]

We have two OOH services in the area, if people ring my number with an emergency they are directed to one of them. The OOH operators are happy to deal with my clients because I don't want them back the next morning to sort myself. The case is all theirs. If an animal is ill with a vaccination reaction, then I treat as necessary. If it needed hospitalisation then I would arrange for this and pay for it myself. I've been doing this for 8 years now and this hasn't happened yet though.

I have very few overheads so it is profitable for me, even although I only do 2-4 animals a day. We have 4 young children so I have to work around them, so still do quite a bit of work in evenings when my DH gets home or during the weekends.. Also I don't travel very far these days- 5 miles is about my limit now.

I know about the Birmingham group, they are using the same name as I have been and I occasionally get someone ringing me expecting me to visit a sick something in Birmingham.

Re: Giving clients Oxytocin for in pup bitches.

Clive Ansell — Thu, 04 Aug 2011 13:48:08 GMT

[quote user="Jacquin Mitchell"]

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

Jacquin, how do you provide 24/7 OOH care in the event that a patient needs hospitalisation?

[/quote]

Any patient that is ill enough to be hospitalised is referred to one of the local clinics I use. They are all accredited hospitals. Is that what you are asking?

[/quote]

Yes. for example if you visit someones home today, and the animal you vaccinate becomes ill later in the day or tonight, what happens? you must have a good working relationship with local practices?

I've no problem with a visiting vet service, seems a good idea but was just wondering how you provide 24/7 cover and deal with any emergencies?

Re: Giving clients Oxytocin for in pup bitches.

Jacquin Mitchell — Thu, 04 Aug 2011 13:33:42 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

Jacquin, how do you provide 24/7 OOH care in the event that a patient needs hospitalisation?

[/quote]

Any patient that is ill enough to be hospitalised is referred to one of the local clinics I use. They are all accredited hospitals. Is that what you are asking?

Re: Giving clients Oxytocin for in pup bitches.

Clive Ansell — Thu, 04 Aug 2011 13:18:00 GMT

Jacquin, how do you provide 24/7 OOH care in the event that a patient needs hospitalisation?

Re: Giving clients Oxytocin for in pup bitches.

Jacquin Mitchell — Thu, 04 Aug 2011 12:48:46 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

Jacquin: I expected no less of a response but clearly as we've both (originally) been given 5 gold stars for our posts (unless you rated yourself - I certainly didn't rate myself) there is equal support for our opposing standpoints.

[/quote]

I've not noticed the stars before until today. They look like a lot of fun... It's nice to know that not everyone dislikes the idea as much as you do though. Or maybe they are just relieved I'm not on THEIR doorstep ;)

Re: Giving clients Oxytocin for in pup bitches.

Bob Russell — Thu, 04 Aug 2011 12:44:20 GMT

There is a massive difference between giving a small amount of oxytocin to a breeder you know and trust and someone that turns up as a new client. My answer is an absolute NO!

The breeder you know and trust is the one that is most likely to kick you in the teeth when a dead puppy or worse dead bitch happens. The solicitors letter and subsequent correspondence with the VDS makes it better to have that disturbed night in my view!

Re: Giving clients Oxytocin for in pup bitches.

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 04 Aug 2011 11:34:48 GMT

Re: Giving clients Oxytocin for in pup bitches.

Jacquin Mitchell — Thu, 04 Aug 2011 10:53:26 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

What planet are you from that you would even consider it? What worries me more is taking the responsibility for a pregnant bitch when you don't have the facilities to deal with the consequencies if a problem occurs. Indeed the whole idea of a visiting only service is flawed, you say on your website: 'But I don’t own a surgery and have few overheads, which makes my prices competitive, especially for multiple-pet households'. In reality you're cherry picking and putting vets who have the expense of providing a full service at a disadvantage and expecting them to pick up the pieces when things go wrong you can't deal with. I would not be happy with you on my doorstep and if they were honest I imagine the rest of this forum wouldn't either. Furthermore I suspect that you are seriously in danger of a breach of your duty of care.

[/quote]

I think part of the problem was my use of the words 'not keen'. Where I come from it means 'No', whereas in the UK I suspect it means 'not sure and could be persuaded'. Anyhow, to put your mind at ease, I'm not even considering it but it's interesting to see some vets in this country do still do this, no?

I'm sorry you disapprove of the idea of a home visiting service, but they are becoming more and more popular and every week or so I am contacted by someone asking about setting one up.

At least half of my clients have pets that wouldn't otherwise see a vet regularly. OAPs, busy mums, carers, owners of pets who hate the vet, people with difficulties in leaving the house- these all make up a good part of my client base. The others are people who work 8-7, have multiple pets or who prefer to have routine appointments in their own house. There are a lot of unvaccinated pets out there. Some people just can't get their pet to a clinic.

I offer a high standard of care for the well pet, my appointments often last an hour, and my clients can talk to me on the phone when they need me. I am completely honest with them about what I will and won't deal with. I don't leave people pieces to pick up, in fact I often end up giving advice to people who feel they have been given a rough deal by other clinics. If someone rings with a very unwell pet that I haven't seen before, they are referred to a local vet. People often ask me for a referral and I have a list of clinics in various areas who I have heard good things about. If one of my clients has an ill pet, we talk about it and work out what's best for the pet. I never take on anything that I can't deal with myself. I have acted as a taxi on occasion to take an ill pet to a surgery based vet when no one else would help.

My clients know exactly what I do and don't provide and I have a local large chain providing my afterhours service. They are happy to do this. I have another chain who I refer any investigations to and I'm sure they make more money from my referrals in a year , than I do from vaccinating healthy animals and doing euthanasias. When I moved ot this area 5 years ago, I sent out an email to all the local surgeries outlining what I do and asking if anyone had objections to me referring clients to them. Not one of them has a problem with me.

Coincidentally I was seeing a dog out your way last week, and referred them to a local clinic for dental treatment and a lump investigation after their vaccination. I've just checked and am relieved they aren't going to your clinic, because I'd hate any of my clients to feel like they were being tolerated as a mess I couldn't clear up myself , rather than welcomed as a new client.

Re: Giving clients Oxytocin for in pup bitches.

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 04 Aug 2011 10:07:53 GMT

Don't even consider giving it

Wynne

Re: Giving clients Oxytocin for in pup bitches.

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 04 Aug 2011 09:57:54 GMT

Must be evil and old fashioned here. We do give out small amounts of oxytocin to trusted people on the instruction to keep it in the fridge and return it to us if unused. They are told to ring us before giving any. Obviously wouldn't advise them to give it until a pup had been born (therefore cervix open) or if bitch straining unproductively. It has saved a few disruptive trips to the surgery in the middle of the night for the bitch - moving her at such a time cannot be good for her, unless there is an indication that she needs looking at.

Re: Giving clients Oxytocin for in pup bitches.

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 04 Aug 2011 09:50:07 GMT

[quote user="Jacquin Mitchell"]

I have been contacted by a Chihuahua breeder who is interested in using me to vaccinate her bitches and puppies. I run a small home-visit practice and usually steer clear of breeders, but this one is almost on my doorstep.

[/quote]

Re: Giving clients Oxytocin for in pup bitches.

Jacquin Mitchell — Wed, 03 Aug 2011 21:55:05 GMT

Thanks. I have no intention of providing her with oxytocin for all the reasons you've listed but just wondered if it was something that was 'done'.

It seems not!

Re: Giving clients Oxytocin for in pup bitches.

Utlendigur — Wed, 03 Aug 2011 20:10:50 GMT

Can I third that. A few years ago I was presented with a JRT bitch in extremis. She'd been straining unproductively for God knows how many hours and a friend of the breeder had "helpfully" come round and injected her with oxytocin that she used on her farm (not sure if it was from the local LA vet or illegally imported from Ireland). The bitch had a pup stuck, paper white membranes and was totally exhausted and collapsed. I was expecting her to die under GA but as soon as the anaesthetic hit her she pinked up - I suspect the shock was in a large part due to excrutiating pain of the uterus contracting against an immovable obstruction. The uterus was close to rupturing - which gave me a good excuse to spay her. They nearly killed that dog. There is no way I would ever dole out oxytocin to a client!

Re: Giving clients Oxytocin for in pup bitches.

Clive Ansell — Wed, 03 Aug 2011 19:50:43 GMT

Absolutely not!

There are contra indications to its use and a full veterinary examination is required prior to use in my opinion. There is also a risk to people handling it. Further, it is not possible to be sure it is being stored according to manufacturers recommendations and then being discarded within the required time frame.

from data sheet:

Contra-indications, warnings, etc

1. When Oxytocin-S is used as an aid to parturition, cervical dilation must be confirmed prior to administration to prevent the risk of foetal death and possible uterine rupture.

2. Oxytocin-S is contra-indicated in any form of obstructive dystocia.

3. Excessive doses of the product may delay parturition by producing incoordinated uterine contractions which interfere with the progress of the foetus especially in multiple pregnancies.

4. The effects of daily dosages of 100 i.u. or more (to facilitate `stripping out' of infected quarters in the treatment of mastitis in cows) on the oestrous cycle have not been fully investigated and the cycle length may be altered.

5. Adrenaline at physiological levels markedly reduces effect of Oxytocin on the uterus or mammary gland. For this reason the animal should not be frightened when complete Oxytocin effect is desired to cause either milk `let-down' or uterine contractions.

User warning

Care should be taken to avoid accidental self-injection. Should self-injection occur, medical advice should be sought immediately. Women, particularly during lactation or the later stages of pregnancy, should avoid handling the product as it could cause smooth muscle (e.g. uterine) contraction.

Re: Giving clients Oxytocin for in pup bitches.

Julian Earl — Wed, 03 Aug 2011 19:47:37 GMT

No, no, no, no, no.

A recipe for disaster especially in chihuahuas. Several breeders have asked me over the years and I have always resisted despite the invonvenience. We had a "do" with an owner whose father/uncle claimed he was a vet (he wasn't, and was later in the news for illegally treating animals) and who had been giving oxytocin to the woman's bitch without examining properly. Hey presto, disaster and the uterus had ruptured by the time we got to see her. Bad example perhaps, but little whelping breeds plus no puppies equals obstructive dystocia, not lack of oxytocin, until the bitch is examined and proved otherwise...