Is this unethical behaviour?

Re: Is this unethical behaviour?

Rachael Winder — Thu, 21 Jul 2011 14:09:38 GMT

I would agree. Having a little inside knowledge, many more are trying to get out (and really struggling as leaving depends on finding another JVP to buy you out unless you're prepared to lose your money) than certain corporates would like you to know. It's all in the small print...

Re: Is this unethical behaviour?

Cat Henstridge — Thu, 21 Jul 2011 10:49:50 GMT

The first time I got one of these letters I was really flattered and excited (but not at all interested) until I realised that everyone had had them!

I was speaking recently to the boss of a new corporate start up chain and we were discussing the sometimes extremely ambitious plans for expansion the chains have (I saw one recently quoted 150 surgeries were planned for the next year!). He said that the thing which stops them from actually achieving these aims is the lack of suitable candidates to run them. Which probably explains the aggressive marketing strategies.

However, I am not sure everything is as rosy as they like to paint it. I was at the annual congress of the largest corporate last year and they had a motivational speaker in who had sent out a survey prior to the event to gauge the levels of satisfaction amongst the JVPs and it turned out that around 10% were probably clinically depressed with more not far behind!

Cat

Re: Is this unethical behaviour?

Roger Meacock — Thu, 21 Jul 2011 00:03:36 GMT

I remember about 15 years ago before corporate practices getting a targetted letter from a practice looking to employ another farm vet. It included a flash glossy practice brochure. Their reason for sending it out directly was that it was cheaper to send a glossy brochure and letter to a relatively small target group of possible applicants than advertise in the usual Vet Record and other journals/media. It was certainly more impressive than anything they could have reasonably written in an advertisement for much more money and had I been looking to change job it would have been more attractive to me for that reason - showed originality, efficiency and was probably more likely to get a response.it obviously made an impression as I can still remember getting it although I can't remember which practice it was.

I don't see how a targetted approach differs from other forms of advertising as only people thinking about changing job will take any notice, in which case they'll flick through job advertisements in journals etc anyway. Whether that approach is as financially viable for an individual practice these days given the cost of post is another question, and possibly only for a more niche position such as farm vets rather than companion animal vets.

I suspect the letters may be as much to entice partners to sell up and join up as to entice new assistants?

Roger

Re: Is this unethical behaviour?

Stephen Courtney — Wed, 20 Jul 2011 23:55:17 GMT

It's much easier to put this crud into recycling than do anything else. wouldn't bother to raise a sweat over it! But i truly wouldn't see it as unethical or unprofessional to send such letters out - it's no worse than all the other junk mail we get.

Many years ago i was incessantly phoned by a personal finace company based at Centerpoint in London - used to get phoned at work and told that 'Dr' Pillock wanted to speak with me...of course i immediately thought it related to a referral or whatever...only to find it was some eejit with a PhD working for the finance people. Calls stopped when I told him to F*k off and stop calling me at work. and these people got our names out of the Register - which is freely available to anyone prepared to pay the RCVS for one....ethics eh.

Re: Is this unethical behaviour?

Charlotte Marshall — Wed, 20 Jul 2011 23:14:00 GMT

I, like I suspect most assistants have had lots of these letters and been approached by their 'headhunter' (who phoned the practice asking to speak to me) claiming I had been recommended.

What irritated me was even after telling him I was not interested they kept mailing me, then I approached them at BSAVA and asked them to take me off the mailing list and I still kept getting letters. I think it was only after i started putting return to sender on them that they finally dried up. I was finding them very annoying - how many times do you have to say no before they get the message!

Re: Is this unethical behaviour?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 23:35:48 GMT

I think the point isn't about staff choosing to leave - obviously there are plenty of options for vets to find new employment. If a member of staff is unhappy with the way we do things then, frankly, I'd rather they left than stayed and I would wish them well.

It also isn't about feeling threatened by this type of mail - the fact they need to do it, and spend a lot of money in the process, speaks volumes about the difficulties they must be having with recruitment.

The point is that this letter, which was simply a circular, is just another way that the corporates show a complete disregard for the fact that this isn't just an office job - this is a profession. Now I'm being 'old and stuffy', but it just isn't good manners! And I for one prefer to be part of a profession that treats its colleagues with a little more respect.

Or maybe the letter should have just gone in the bin, to join all the others that were mailed out.....

Re: Is this unethical behaviour?

Rob Loxley — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 23:23:42 GMT

[quote user="nikki"]they probably stick a pin in the register and just send them a letter[/quote]

and there's me thinking I'm being head-hunted and doing my best at playing hard-to-get

Re: Is this unethical behaviour?

nikki — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 23:02:56 GMT

i keep getting these letters at home - they just go straight in the bin. i dont feel i'm being head hunted, i think they're just randomyl targeting - they probably stick a pin in the register and just send them a letter.

Re: Is this unethical behaviour?

Stephen Courtney — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 22:45:15 GMT

I think every assistant in the register has received letters like this. I think you are being oversensitive to the whole idea. The Vets4Pets hook is more implying that by setting up in a joint venture partnership you can practice the way you want to - a perennial beef among assistants and a factor cited by many vets who have opened up their own practices - including those who are having the biggest problem with this type of letter. It isn't meant to imply that the principal of the p[actice the assistant works for is in any way substandard.

I don't see it as unethical. Would you have a problem with your staff reading job ads in the Vet times or Record? Not much different in my opinion, except that i feel it is a waste of postage. My letter, along with the DVD infomercial, went straight into recycling. Because I wasn't interested. But if I was looking for such a change in my life, it might have been very welcome. If your staff are getting itchy feet, it isn't hard for them to to start looking for options. everyone is free to take their labour where they want.

Re: Is this unethical behaviour?

Claire Edgington — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 18:32:03 GMT

I used to work in a practice in Northamptonshire and a corporate type practice (not mentioning any names but isn't one of the big ones) opened up in the same town with a big marketing budget that they weren't afraid to use. All the assistants at out practice received 'poaching' type letters. This practice was sailing close to the wind with the way they were marketing the practice and got all the local practices backs up. It certainly didn't encourage me to want to work for them! I agree with Bob and am all for good manners. There should be no need for underhand tactics.

Re: Is this unethical behaviour?

Ian Mostyn — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 17:54:40 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Hang on are you suggesting that the letter was implying that you have low clinical standards? If it truly did then that is close to libel. [/quote]

The line I quoted was word-for-word which to me implies that my clinical standards are not as high as Vets4Pets. I suppose it doesn't state that we have low standards but that our standards are not as high as they could be.

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]It is not the same as someone head hunting your employee by suggesting that they would be working somewhere with generally high standards. Do you prevent your employees from reading the classified ads in Vet Times etc? Do your classified adverts extoll the vrtues of your practice? That is effectively the same - someone is advertising in a journal that is coming straight into the practice and is going to be read by everyone. I don't even think its bad manners by contemporary standards, its the way of the world, the innocence of James Herriot's world died a long time ago.[/quote]

With respect, it is not the same. An advert in a journal is not the same as a targeted letter. Maybe I am old fashioned but I think the profession should maintain some respect and manners.

Ian

Re: Is this unethical behaviour?

Bob Russell — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 17:13:02 GMT

OK - I am clearly old-fashioned but I consider good manners do matter and matter a lot.

I wonder how Vets4Pets let you know you are fired? An email? A notice on the board?

Re: Is this unethical behaviour?

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 17:08:18 GMT

[quote user="Ian Mostyn"]

My objection is that this fishing expedition was posted to the practice address. If it had gone to the home address following a query by the employee I would have no problem but this is effectively someone coming to my premises and directly saying to my staff, why not work for us, we are better than your current employer. Would you be happy if I wrote to your staff at your surgery saying that my practice does things better?

One line that offended me was "The clinical standards of the practice where I work are not the standards I want to practice". I suppose I should be disappointed that Vets4Pets are encouraging vets to accept lower standards than they currently work to Seriously though, it is getting close to "speak or write disparagingly about another veterinary surgeon"

Ian

[/quote]

Hang on are you suggesting that the letter was implying that you have low clinical standards? If it truly did then that is close to libel. It is not the same as someone head hunting your employee by suggesting that they would be working somewhere with generally high standards. Do you prevent your employees from reading the classified ads in Vet Times etc? Do your classified adverts extoll the vrtues of your practice? That is effectively the same - someone is advertising in a journal that is coming straight into the practice and is going to be read by everyone. I don't even think its bad manners by contemporary standards, its the way of the world, the innocence of James Herriot's world died a long time ago.

Re: Is this unethical behaviour?

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 17:02:31 GMT

I feel rather left out, no-one has tried to poach me!

Re: Is this unethical behaviour?

Ian Mostyn — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 16:36:25 GMT

Sorry Martin & Judith but this was not a targeted letter following a query but a fishing expedition taking a name from a database - clear from the tone of the letter. My objection is that this fishing expedition was posted to the practice address. If it had gone to the home address following a query by the employee I would have no problem but this is effectively someone coming to my premises and directly saying to my staff, why not work for us, we are better than your current employer. Would you be happy if I wrote to your staff at your surgery saying that my practice does things better?

Maybe I should call it bad manners & rude and not unethical but I am not sure I want the profession to go down this particular path.

Ian

Re: Is this unethical behaviour?

Bob Russell — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 16:17:51 GMT

No they get the address from the register. The employee does not have a say in the matter. The real cheek is to write to the place of work which is usually the only address they can get.

Not illegal just bad manners typical of the company.

Re: Is this unethical behaviour?

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 16:06:16 GMT

[quote user="Judith Joyce"]

Your observations about contracts are unusual - it is unlikely that your assistants have signed up to life-long exclusivity.

[/quote]

Couldn't agree more, clearly the assistant had given the head hunters his/her then current address and they're just following up so I can't see what the beef is. Even your current employees have the right to look for another job and anyone else has the right to approach them with an offer, its up to you to make your job attractive enough to keep them. As a practice owner I'm frequently being approached by corporate practices wishing to buy me out and I'll admit I've talked with one or two, should my employees feel the same way about that? I'm hardly going to advertise the fact to them that they may have a sudden change of employer an I? If anyone did anything wrong it was the receptionist opening someones elses personal mail!

PS You cant even get a transfer fee for him/her can you as he/she left on a Bosman?

Re: Is this unethical behaviour?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 15:54:52 GMT

[quote user="Judith Joyce"]

Similarly, to dress one's waiting room as a pet shop would likely have resulted in complaints to the College.

[/quote]

Still ought to, in my opinion. Grump, grump.

Re: Is this unethical behaviour?

Judith Joyce — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 15:49:29 GMT

I understand your annoyance but I can't see that this is unethical or illegal. Your observations about contracts are unusual - it is unlikely that your assistants have signed up to life-long exclusivity.

At best, this is what my father and father-in-law (both Surveyors) would have described as "sharp practice" - not actually wrong but not really right either.

Interestingly, the definitions of good practice, bad practice and sharp practice change and evolve over time. For example, 30 years ago the active promotion of dog food (even if you believed it was a better than average, beneficial to the patient dog food) would have been consiered sharp practice. Similarly, to dress one's waiting room as a pet shop would likely have resulted in complaints to the College.

Re: Is this unethical behaviour?

Claire Fisher — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 15:37:24 GMT

I'm an assistant and I've had letters from them at home and at work, I also had a recruitment company phone me at work on behalf of vets4pets! they now have a store near us so hopefully they'll give up.

Re: Is this unethical behaviour?

Ian Mostyn — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 15:09:52 GMT

Exactly what I thought. Unethical but not illegal and non-veterinary staff so RCVS toothless. All I can manage is a bit of personal indignation....

Ian

Re: Is this unethical behaviour?

Bob Russell — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 15:03:10 GMT

Our nurses have been regularly getting these offers for years. Yes it is unethical but it is not vets sending out the letters. The administrators for Vets4Pets don't give a damn about ethics.