So what would you do.

Re: So what would you do.

patrick murphy — Wed, 20 Jul 2011 13:29:20 GMT

I agree, but the one that get's me most is the we are going on holiday so can we pay next month.

Re: So what would you do.

Clive Ansell — Wed, 20 Jul 2011 13:21:34 GMT

I have had a similar one this morning. an aging SBT with lethargy and anorexia, no other signs. taken in for routine blood work and the dog handed back to the client by nursing staff who allowed her to leave without paying her bill of £102. Tried to ring with results, number not known and from a dodgy area. I have suggested if she rings for her results that payment must be collected before they are discussed.

I just cannot understand why practices allow people to leave without paying -madness. maybe the nurses concerned should pay it?

Re: So what would you do.

Julian Earl — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 16:57:29 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]

I am not advocating uncontrolled credit agreements but that some sensitivity is shown towards it. One area we get a certain amount of bad debt is following euthanasia. We try to encourage clients to pay at the time the proceedure is booked "would you like to pay for that now to avoid having to think about it later" is a line that is encouraged and appreciated by clients. However there are times when this just doesn't work. So do we refuse to carry out the proceedure without pre payment? That would prevent bad debt but rightly piss people off. Or do we insist they go to reception to pay immediately afterwards. that would probably reduce it or do we allow people grace to come in in a few days? That way we see some bad debt but gain appreciation and goodwill.

[/quote]

If it is someone you don't know and/or have no good reason to trust, you can always suggest they pay in advance rather than having to stand at reception (in tears) afterwards while waiting to pay.*

*No need for the obvious joke there...

Re: So what would you do.

Louise6732 — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 16:44:25 GMT

I went to the dentist today, paid when I was finished (as civilised people do!) The receptionist knows I'm a vet (she's one of our clients!) and I asked her if people ever pull out the 'I forgot my purse/I can't afford that bill' excuse, as she was shocked when I told her how much we get that. They hardly ever have a problem with bad debts, occasionally have to send in the debt collectors but very rarely.

Maybe it's because we deal with the cute and fluffies all day and people think we're more likely to want to help for free?!

Re: So what would you do.

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 16:34:06 GMT

There's plenty of threads on should we/shouldn't we try to get unpaid bills paid including a current one so I won't discuss that. I think the locum is at a disadvantage because unless the terms and conditions are laid out in black and white and he/she is told it must be adhered to and has signed something to that effect they can't be blamed and even less be liable for the unpaid fee. I accept that everytime I go away I will end up with a couple of bad debts even though I do have such a document. The permanent staff know who is likely to be dodgy and in my practice we make sure those clients do pay at least 50% (pikies 100%!) up front for surgery and we don't hand out any medication unless it is paid for after a consultation so if I they do try it on all I've lost is my time. I will do what is absolutely necessary for my duty of care and no more until I see the colour of their money. The nurses can give the locum guidance on this but can't enforce it however one would like to think that a bit of common sense would prevail. With the best will in the world a few will still slip through the net but at least losses are limited. Other regular clients will be allowed to pay afterwards but few expect extended credit, I think that is a utopian dream these days.What surprises me is that even the odd bonded client suddenly turns rogue and does a runner.

Re: So what would you do.

Bob Russell — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 16:22:11 GMT

the key thing is make a nuisance of yourselves - the message does get round. I suspect the soft-touch message gets round even faster. We had to put up a message telling people that we are unable to offer credit because we did let a client pay in instalments. Unfortunately we were conned and the client let all her friends know and we had a stream of people wanting to register because we offered credit!

I suspect most of these would have ended up as bad debts. It is very sad that it is necessary to take such a firm stance but that's life!

Re: So what would you do.

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 15:51:14 GMT

[quote user="Vikki Halliday"]The only money grabber here is the client who is refusing to pay. Get it to court asap, or refer to a debt collection agency, but do something![/quote]

Yeah, but he ain't gonna get the money, worrever.

If there's a local firm of commission-only debt collectors who are prepared to knock persistently on doors, by all means sick them on to him, just to be a nuisance and send out a message. But you still won't get any money.

Re: So what would you do.

Dagmar Steele — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 15:37:47 GMT

[quote user="Vikki Halliday"]

I'm not suggesting that we are treating the majority of our clients like crooks, however I do think that practices need to wise up and start charging adequately, fully and promptly for work carried out. Otherwise you perpetuate the illusion that we are all rich vets earning a fat living on exorbitant fees, and can afford to wait for clients to pay when they feel like it.

[/quote]

oh yes! My practice is in an urban area and if it'd ever cross my mind to give all my customers credit payable at the end of the month I'd be bust by now! I have learnt it the hard way and written off many many bills. Until the day one very demanding customer commenced the visit with the remark: "Don't be so expensive, we've just bought a new big house!" I would have loved a house myself but couldn't afford one. Ever since I started billing now and then and properly. (Having said that there are still people paying operations off in installments or postponing the payment till next month, but they are few and well known to us)

Hugh!

Re: So what would you do.

Vikki Halliday LLB — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 14:13:44 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]So do we refuse to carry out the proceedure without pre payment? [/quote]

Not suggesting you do, but as you have alluded to, suggesting that it is pre-paid before the euthanasia is often appreciated by clients who have no intention of ripping you off. Carrying out the procedure and allowing the client to leave is a recipe for disaster in my book, and only in a very very very few cases, e.g. owner not being present and animal requiring immediate PTS, would I consider allowing a "period of grace".

However, we are a service, and the difficulty is that what you may consider to be sensible in terms of risk, others may well consider either the norm, or extremely risky indeed.

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]The owner was very anxious and concerned about where she was going and the dog. It would have given a bad impression to insist the account settled before the dog was released[/quote]

Yup, and I'm sure the emergency clinic made sure she paid the bill however anxious she was!

Re: So what would you do.

Mark Holmes — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 14:04:57 GMT

[quote user="Vikki Halliday"]

Nonsense and madness, and clients are no more likely to show "goodwill" or loyalty towards them than if you make them all pay at the time of consultation, and this dangerous practice and attitude needs to stop.

[/quote]

I have an account outstanding at the moment, we reffered a case to an emergency clinic recently, very much as an emergency and did not insist the account was paid before the dog was sent. I expect it will be paid but it is potential bad debt. The owner was very anxious and concerned about where she was going and the dog. It would have given a bad impression to insist the account settled before the dog was released.

Sensible credit control is important but the following quote I think sums it up

"Our research has found premeditated ripoffs represent 1 to 2 percent of the customer base in most organisations. However, most organisations defend themselves against unscrupulous customers by . . . treating the 98 percent of honest customers like crooks to catch the 2 percent who are crooks."

John Goodman, quoted in ‘Improving Service Doesn’t Always Require Big Investment’, The Service Edge, July–August, 1990, p. 3.

Re: So what would you do.

Vikki Halliday LLB — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 13:27:22 GMT

[quote user="Martin Jones"]

Ditto. These big city types, with their money grabbing ways .........

[/quote]

Hey, I'm no Shylock!

Re: So what would you do.

Martin Jones — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 13:07:02 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]

Not so! I still get most of my shopping on tick at the local village shop and pay up once a month or so.

[/quote]

Ditto. These big city types, with their money grabbing ways .........

Re: So what would you do.

Wren — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 12:25:59 GMT

[quote user="Vikki Halliday"]

There is no such thing as "goodwill" generated by allowing credit. The days are gone where you went to the local corner shop and received a week's shopping "on tick", and so no-one in my opinion should be offering that sort of payment option.

[/quote]

Not so! I still get most of my shopping on tick at the local village shop and pay up once a month or so. It generates huge goodwill for them from me and is the main reason I use them rather than the supermarkets, even though they're dearer. But then maybe we live in an idealistic, trusting rural backwater?

Re: So what would you do.

Vikki Halliday LLB — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 11:39:51 GMT

[quote user="Eamon McAllister"]There is a thin line between rigid credit control and being perceived as a money grabber[/quote]

Absolutely not!

Credit control is about limiting those instances where you will provide "credit", (and I use the term loosely unless you are a FSA registered credit broker), for example to those who claiming direct to an insurance company is likely to result in faster payment and a happier client, and chasing debts where people have failed to pay is a part of that.

Asking for payment for a professional fee is most certainly not being a "money grabber".

The only money grabber here is the client who is refusing to pay. Get it to court asap, or refer to a debt collection agency, but do something!

The attitude that this should be written off is damaging to the rest of us in the profession who want to work hard and be paid on time for the work we do, and no defence of "didn't know I had to pay" or "cant' pay/won't pay" is acceptable.

The profession is in a financial mess because too many people have blustered on about "goodwill" "loyalty" and "animal welfare" and fudged the issue. In the publi'c minds we are expensive, but it's ok because historically we will give them some time to pay, or even worse, write off a bill that a client can't afford because after all we're just pocketing all the cash ourselves anyway?

Re: So what would you do.

Eamon McAllister — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 09:51:14 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]Honestly? I would put it down as an investment in good will. Not the good will of this arsehole but look at it like this. You could put policies in place which would absolutely prevent this happening. They would however be so onerous on good paying clients that a good number would be offended, discouraged or go elsewhere. For example asking for fees upfront. It has happened as a result of not having those policies as you believe that a relationship is best built on a degree of trust. Clients will appreciate that and hence it's an investment in your client base. It is possible to get too hung up on a small amount of bad debt and start managing the whole client base for the small number that treat you like shit. But the locum should have known better that to dispense a full 100ml bottle.

[/quote]

Exactly right. There is a thin line between rigid credit control and being perceived as a money grabber. As I said earlier, take it on the chin and forget about it asap.

Re: So what would you do.

Mark Rowland — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 09:03:13 GMT

Actually the locum gave out the metacam. this is why the client got it, he was given it in the consult room, secondly, the locum could see from the computer screen that the account hadnt been setteled. I have chalked this one up. The normal polocy is not to dispense the drugs but this one got through the net. I get a fair amount of goodwill through financial issues with clients as the practice tries to be flexible with payments. SAtill bugs though when the abusers arrive though. Calling the cops is a good idea though, I might threaten it one day and see what happens

Re: So what would you do.

Martin Jones — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 00:29:48 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

I'd deduct that from the locum's money

[/quote]

No, you wouldn't. The fault doesn't lie with the locum in this one - somebody robbed the practice, and the locum didn't manage to stop them; the fault's with the client, not with the unwitting victim.

There's a certain naivety, though, with the practice staff handing over dog, radiological interpretation and drugs BEFORE payment. Generally, the done thing would be, 'Oh, yes. All ready to go; the vet would like to go through the x-rays with you, and we'll fetch Fido right now. How would you like to pay; that will be x pounds.' If the client doesn't want to fork out for the treatment before discharge and discussion, that's perfectly understandable. However, s/he has no leg to stand on if s/he wants to pick up Fido without paying for he investigation that s/he or partner have already agreed to.

The locum probably wouldn't have had a clue that the client had had dog and drugs dispensed before refusing to pay. why would they? As a locum, if I'm presented with a client to discuss discharge with, I have no idea whether the client has paid unless I'm informed by the regular staff.

Re: So what would you do.

Mark Holmes — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 00:19:56 GMT

Honestly? I would put it down as an investment in good will. Not the good will of this arsehole but look at it like this. You could put policies in place which would absolutely prevent this happening. They would however be so onerous on good paying clients that a good number would be offended, discouraged or go elsewhere. For example asking for fees upfront. It has happened as a result of not having those policies as you believe that a relationship is best built on a degree of trust. Clients will appreciate that and hence it's an investment in your client base. It is possible to get too hung up on a small amount of bad debt and start managing the whole client base for the small number that treat you like shit. But the locum should have known better that to dispense a full 100ml bottle.

Re: So what would you do.

Utlendigur — Mon, 18 Jul 2011 23:45:48 GMT

I caught the end of one of those fly-on-the-wall police programmes tonight. At one point the police car was flagged down by a cabbie who had dropped off a fare at their home - and the fare hadn't paid. The police went back with him and gave the fare dodgers the choice of pay up or be arrested. Apparently making off without payment is a criminal offence under the umbrella of fraud. Maybe it was all for the cameras but it made me wonder - why don't vets call the police when clients walk out without paying, especially when it involves goods as well as services? Petrol stations do, restaurants do, shops do (shoplifting) - why not vets?

Re: So what would you do.

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 18 Jul 2011 23:01:31 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]

Oh yes, 100ml metacam too. That gets me more than the rest of it. Le sigh.

[/quote]

I'd deduct that from the locum's money

Re: So what would you do.

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 18 Jul 2011 22:59:47 GMT

Maybe Unite could help

Re: So what would you do.

Mark Rowland — Mon, 18 Jul 2011 22:59:21 GMT

Oh yes, 100ml metacam too. That gets me more than the rest of it. Le sigh.

Re: So what would you do.

Mark Rowland — Mon, 18 Jul 2011 22:57:39 GMT

Oh he knows all the tricks, girlfriend signed the form. Low life is too good, I prefer pond life.

Yep I suppose you are right, not worth the effort.

Re: So what would you do.

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 18 Jul 2011 22:57:29 GMT

You've been mugged, chum. Welcome to the wonderful world of veterinary practice.

I hope he didn't get away with a load of medicines as well. That really hurts.

Re: So what would you do.

Eamon McAllister — Mon, 18 Jul 2011 22:52:13 GMT

I would try to forget about as quickly as possible. People like this are low life thieves who will only cause you more anguish if you try to chase them.