Punishment-based training?

Re: Punishment-based training?

Mark Hedberg — Mon, 01 Aug 2011 20:25:16 GMT

Because people only get worked up about welfare when it's a cute and fuzzy animal. Look up a fishing boat or a crab boat sometime, very educational.

Re: Punishment-based training?

Rob Davis — Mon, 01 Aug 2011 19:10:38 GMT

I agree wholeheartedly with the above. I have a similar fence for my dogs. They never cross the boundary with their collars on (they emit a warning beep first and once they are trained they know not to go any closer to the boundary). Once trained they very rarely (if ever) receive a shock.

My pigs however regularly push each other onto the electric fence when I approach with a bucket of food, and my 9 year old son regularly touches the pigs' fence for a laugh. Why is it considered ok to use electric fencing for livestock and not for cats and dogs?

Re: Punishment-based training?

Bob Russell — Mon, 01 Aug 2011 16:00:42 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

I see Chris Lawrence, ex head vet at the RSPCA has found himself on the receiving end of some criticism from Quentin Letts (Daily Mail), regarding his (apparently hypocritical) personal use of electric shock collars:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2020343/Dogs-Trust-veterinary-director-Chris-Laurence-Hypocrisy-bunny-hugger.html?ITO=1490

[/quote]

At last a touch of sense. I have an impossible Staffie who since I got her at 6 months old has been a runner. She switches off (into an almost trance like state) then runs. She stops, panics and runs again. I have collected her from 20 miles away before now!

We use a containment fence allowing her 8 acres to run in but without it she is gone, sometimes for hours. There is always someone at home and she has plenty of mental stimulation.

Recently I had a phone call from a farm a couple of miles away because a black and white dog plus a Staffie had worried sheep (leading to a number of deaths). I was able to tell them that it was not my dogs involved and why!

Trainer controlled electric training collars strike me as being so liable to misuse that there is little place for them in the world of amateur dog training. I suspect little place in professional training either. I do see containment fences as potential life savers. All my dogs know the boundary lines and will not cross. They are safe and free to live a semi-free range lifestyle and the Staffie jumps up enthusiastically when the red collar comes out. No different to other dogs reacting when the lead comes out for a walk.

Electric collars are not all the same.

Re: Punishment-based training?

Bob Russell — Mon, 01 Aug 2011 15:49:18 GMT

Dominance/hierarchy is normal in a pack situation. I would not suggest that an aggressive dog can be 'dominated' out of its aggression. A number of dogs may be pushed into aggression by inappropriate use of dominance. This can be called bullying!

Re: Punishment-based training?

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 01 Aug 2011 11:54:17 GMT

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2020343/Dogs-Trust-veterinary-director-Chris-Laurence-Hypocrisy-bunny-hugger.html?ITO=1490

Re: Punishment-based training?

Richard Carter — Wed, 20 Jul 2011 09:18:57 GMT

Some of the things behaviorists come out with smack of 'latest fad' - I do sometimes wonder if they actually have pets themselves and are speaking from first hand or learned knowledge. One CPD event a newly qualified behaviourist was in raptures describing the difference between cats marking and urinating. Afraid I must have dosed off after this.....

Re: Punishment-based training?

Anonymous — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 21:18:17 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Never understood this non-dominance approach to training. [/quote]

Referred to as the "non-dominance" approach rather than the "xxx" approach. Hard to understand an approach when all you are usually told is what it is not. No wonder I don't feel adequate when it comes to discussing behaviour...

I think that's largely because those behaviourists who are unconvinced that there is "benefit of using the concept of ‘‘dominance’’ in the diagnosis and treatment of dogs that have displayed aggression" (Bradshaw et al., 2009), and point out the inherent flaws with the popularized usage:

(Incorrect) use of "dominance" as a characteristic trait of an individual dog rather than restricting to describing relationships.
Differing definitions of what defines a "dominance" relationship, making the term open to misinterpretation and without a well-accepted definition used by all, even in the context of relationships.
Concerns over validity (+/or lack of benefit of analogy) of extrapolating old studies on captive wolf packs, often artificially assembled from unrelated individuals, to a pet dog within a family situation.
An unfounded and unhelpful belief that the desire to be dominant actually drives dog behaviour and leads to aggression.

have failed thus far to replace this popular concept with a more resilient and better accepted alternative. It's easy to point out the flaws and misconceptions with the "dominance" camp, but the bigger challenge is forming a better concept to grip the pet-owning public (or maybe life's just not that simple...). Associative learning, combined with V [conceptive resource value], may provide more parsimonious explanations for agonistic behavior in dogs than can the traditional concept of dominance; but it would need to show a little more resilience and expansion first...

REF:

Bradshaw, J.W.S., Blackwell, E.J. and Casey, R.A. (2009) Dominance in domestic dogs - useful construct or bad habit? Journal of Veterinary Behaviour, 4(3), pp. 135-144.

Re: Punishment-based training?

Bob Russell — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 09:16:27 GMT

Never understood this non-dominance approach to training. The dog is a pack animal with a dominance structure. Makes sense for there to be a carrot and stick (perhaps not literally) approach to training.

I am near the bottom of the dominance structure at home (just above the dogs and well below the cats) so am quite used to the carrot and stick!!!!

Re: Punishment-based training?

Mark Holmes — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 00:01:36 GMT

I know a local vet who recently resorted to one of those. Had a problem with dog running away and hence it could not be walked off lead. Endless work with trainers of various sorts had not helped. He used it ONCE. Problem fixed not needed since, dog walks off lead fine.

Re: Punishment-based training?

Ian Mostyn — Mon, 18 Jul 2011 23:46:16 GMT

or husbands

Re: Punishment-based training?

Julian Earl — Mon, 18 Jul 2011 22:15:17 GMT

Ah, sorry - thought this thread was going to be about staff...

Re: Punishment-based training?

Alex Gough — Mon, 18 Jul 2011 18:32:06 GMT

Interesting letters in the last Vet Rec from someone complaining about a device made by Roger Mugford, with an interesting reply from Dr Mugford. Anyone see it?

alex

Re: Punishment-based training?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 18 Jul 2011 18:06:05 GMT

[quote user="David Beattie"]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-14181927

An owner has been fined for using out-dated 'punishment-based' techniques.

I'm not passing comment on his 'guilt' or the effectiveness/use/welfare implications of such devices, but does anyone else spot some sort of an irony here?

[/quote]

Yes!.

I'd give you a but it's too sad at the same time.

And a for the pukeworthy codswallop from the RSPCA.