Too many vets?

Re: Too many vets?

Robin Grimmer — Thu, 21 Jul 2011 12:02:35 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

The reason I posted under Anon is that I hate consulting, I am naturally an introverted person and by the end of the day I have had it with speaking to people. I would prefer to spend time on my own or with a small crowd and I cannot do small talk and chit chat. My natural consulting technique is - in out goodbye. ( I actually prefer 5-7min consult times) It affects my family life, if the day has been busy I have great difficulty with family and children because I have been stressed out all day. I feel I cannot talk to them and have no patience with their chat because I have had to endure it all day.

I am currently in a South East, corporate and sales is a huge part of the position, we can be very busy and it is hell.

Is it just me?

[/quote]

Dear Anon,

have you considered locum work? The work/life balance is much better and you can do as much or as little as you like. There's no escaping consulting in first opinion practice, but it's easier to bear if you're not doing so many hours. You wouldn't necessarily have to travel too much either. I do most of my work for local practices, I don't need to use agencies that much. You could try contacting local practices and see if they need any regular locum work.

Re: Too many vets?

bob lehner — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 11:21:42 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

I am currently in a South East, corporate and sales is a huge part of the position, we can be very busy and it is hell.

Is it just me?

[/quote]

Very sad and somewhat disturbing comment . I know many vets don't like consulting and would prefer to be operating or whatever - personally I enjoy consulting - although I do feel it is a bit like being a performing artist and it can be quite draining after a long session - and there are of course some clients who make your heart sink when you see them on the list.

I don't know what age you are - but if you hate it that much I would seriously be looking at alternative forms of employment , for your own sake and that of your family. Don't condemn yourself to a lifetime of stress and misery.

Re: Too many vets?

David Mills — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 00:28:48 GMT

1. UK are part of the EU WTD (Working Time Regulations in UK law), by virtue of being a part of the EU. Vets, as individuals, can sign an optional opt-out of the maximum number of hours chosen to work per week - currently 48 hours per week when avergaed out over 17 weeks. This opt-out cannot be a condition of employment and is cancellable by the employee at any given time. I am strongly in favour of opt outs - for someone to try to harmonise working hours across professions across the EU is at best ludicrously anti-enterprise and at worst downright dangerous.

2. The veterinary profession as a business model in its current format - i.e. lots of independent operators - is unsustainable. It is quaint in that anyone can, and does, set up a vet's practice often with little/no business experience but if people continue to do so (if not already) then the marketplace becomes saturated with suppliers, driving prices and standards down until businesses start to fail. At a recent seminar over 50% of UK practices profit was less than 4% (a large slice of which were negative) - you can get interest rates in bonds far higher than this - as a business that is truly woeful.

Why is it so? A lot of it is ego - "I can do it better" - along with a demand for autocracy meaning there are often 10 practices within 30 miles with very similar kit rather than doing the sensible thing and sharing the kit, or even premises, along with an arrogant delusion that we are all pseudo-academics and shouldn't be managed by non-vets; partly shocking naivety about running costs, of which the feminine bias/long uni course/maternity abscence in the profession has a huge effect; partly being unable to give equal consideration to animal care and profit margins; partly that curious 21st century disease of expecting everything for nothing - 'work-life balance', 'good wage', 'flexible working', 'no ooh', 'job satisfaction' - (why the hell should vets have a 4-day week? It is utterly incomprehensible to enter a profession that you know has onerous working hours and then whinge about those hours continuously - or, as I have seen, start a job with ooh commitments then try to get out of those commitments within 2 months of starting).

Coporates get a bashing on here but like it or not centralisation of resources and personnel, along with satellite areas of speciality, is where the veterinary profession's future lies with strict controls on costs and maximisation of income through added value - the latter being not pompously expecting respect off everyone who walks into your consulting room just because you went to uni for 5/6 years but rather earning that respect through quality care. In these terms, I welcome the increase in vets because where supply outweighs demand in personnel (rather than number of businesses) natural selection tends to apply whereby the bad'uns are rooted out (as this is an employer-led selection rather than a consumer-led (price) one). In a roundabout way, then, if you're not adding value, and can't talk to clients, then 1st opinion practice ain't going to be for you. which means referral centres. Or universities. But then it's a vicious circle - because who is teaching the undergrads how to be vets, most of whom will end up in 1st opinion? That is another kettle of fish...

Re: Too many vets?

Gareth Dowdeswell — Mon, 18 Jul 2011 17:10:24 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

I have a theory regarding stress and vets and I wonder if it applies only to me or more of the profession.

As a vet we are very much placed fromt of house and in close contact with the public many vets jobs are largely a sales role, particularly in some larger corporate type practices. We are expected to sell ourselves, our services and our profession. Now most businesses recruiting for this type of job, specifically select for attributes which suit this type of role. Successful sales people are generally fairly gregarious and extrovert personalities. (My brother for example, very successful salesman, and all of the above)

Veterinary Schools select on achedemic ability, often 5 years locked in your bedroom studying pre university and a furthter 5 years at university. This is a fairly introverted activity. Essentially I believe we are selecting for the wrong types of people for the role as it is in practice.

[/quote]

It sounds to me like you aren't suited to first opinion practice. Consulting is a large part of first opinion practice and if you don't enjoy it I don't think you'll ever enjoy working in first opinion practice. How long are you consulting for at a time? I'd expect even the most people loving vet to struggle with more than 2.5 hours consulting without a break. Have you looked into any alternative areas of work to try and reduce client contact?

Re: Too many vets?

Bob Russell — Mon, 18 Jul 2011 15:50:21 GMT

Not just you feeling you cannot talk to family. It gets to most of us at times!

I found myself snapping at my wife and daughter last night. No real reason other than I am tired!

I would probably last about five minutes (or 71/2 mins perhaps) in a practice where I had to perform like a trained monkey. Thank goodness I have my own practice and within limits I am only accountable to myself!

My family make me cups of tea and take very little notice of my bad days. They are very well aware if it becomes a pattern and will make feelings very well known if necessary.

Re: Too many vets?

An On MRCVS — Mon, 18 Jul 2011 15:38:45 GMT

I have a theory regarding stress and vets and I wonder if it applies only to me or more of the profession.

I am currently in a South East, corporate and sales is a huge part of the position, we can be very busy and it is hell.

Is it just me?

Re: Too many vets?

Bob Russell — Mon, 18 Jul 2011 13:33:42 GMT

[quote user="Simon Neuhoff"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Depressing perhaps but vets are great survivors!

[/quote]

Whilst I agree with your post in general Bob it is worth pointing out that vets have had either the highest, or amongst the highest, rate for drug addiction, divorce, alcoholism and suicide for years. Vets are not that good at looking after themselves on a personal level - and this I expect to get worse.

[/quote]

I did not mean survivors in a particularly positive way!! The fact that it is necessary for us to survive anything is a sad reflection on the way things are. I went to a 'family' BBQ (and no we did not put any member of the family on the barbecue) and had long discussions with non-vets about the state of the world!

I have relatives in a number of professions including legal and architecture and the same is happening for them. More being trained and fewer jobs. The only professions that seem to be avoiding this problem are those directly funded by the government especially the medical profession where training is usually subsidised!

Re: Too many vets?

Simon Neuhoff — Mon, 18 Jul 2011 13:05:37 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Depressing perhaps but vets are great survivors!

[/quote]

Re: Too many vets?

Ben Walton — Sat, 16 Jul 2011 15:32:23 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]

The only answer is to increase the number of people generally who use a vet; those people who currently are the ones who rarely and/or reluctantly use the vet, but exactly how that is done is not very clear. What is clear to me is that deliberately raising prices to shed some clients is of limited benefit. For a start, it depends where you are starting from - double your prices, lose some clients and make more profit? Fine. So why not double them again, and again. Simply because eventually that system of business implodes.

[/quote]

This is bang on. Two things:

1. I currently run a clinical trial for canine osteoarthritis. Two thirds of the dogs we enrol have not previously received prescription medication, and their owners have often nor sought veterinary attention. And this is largely from a "good demographic". The reason often quoted is price.

2. Watching Postman Pat with my daughter this morning, two lady characters chatting on a train about one of their dogs, the owner says" "And of course I take him to the vet, but is so expensive you know!". You know a perception is engrained when it makes it onto CBeebies!

The answer isn't cheapness though. I guess it's about engaging the public, local communities etc. In fact I "guess" a lot of things...

Re: Too many vets?

Julian Earl — Sat, 16 Jul 2011 13:19:36 GMT

[quote user="Dagmar Steele"]

[quote user="plantagenet"]

[quote user="Clive Ansell"] If working a 40 hour week does not provide an adequate salary, then it is time to start charging properly.[/quote]

Lovely idea, (not sure actually) but this would have 2 immediate consequences - a large number of people would never present their animals to a vet so the work would decrease, and secondly the number of complaints would go up even further as people 'expect what they've paid for'

[/quote]

You're missing a vital aspect and, I believe looking through rose-tinted specs. As noted, increasing numbers of vets and practices across the nation and a fixed market places a limit on the funds that are available to practices. There are practices that will thrive due to getting their service, marketing and pricing right, but whether every practice is rubbish or all are brilliant, there will always be a choice where people can go and the number of animals that will ever go to the vet is limited. There is a real danger of practices relying on insurance (for example), increasing prices, narrowing the target market and becoming ever-more exclsuive.

As for the original question, the numbers are surely a result of increasing costs for the universities and therefore needing more students; a historical shortfall in vets, and dare I say, falling numbers of male entrants. This last may be the sole counter-balance to increased numbers due tomaternity leave, part-time positions and so on. The problem with reduced hours/part-time positions is that folk still expect close to a full-time salary - but that is where my post started!

Re: Too many vets?

Dagmar Steele — Sat, 16 Jul 2011 10:49:10 GMT

>Last thing - never forget that some practice owners are paying themselves less than some of their staff!<

I do if you look at hourly rates and happily do so, because good employees give me the chance to spend time with my family. And that's worth a lot to me. They are both great and try to never let me down, I'm sure it would be different if I'd pay peanuts.

Re: Too many vets?

Dagmar Steele — Sat, 16 Jul 2011 10:43:54 GMT

[quote user="plantagenet"]

[quote user="Clive Ansell"] If working a 40 hour week does not provide an adequate salary, then it is time to start charging properly.[/quote]

[/quote]

I'm not quite sure. I have a neighbouring practice that charges considerably more than most of us. They have very good traffic and the customers may be demanding, but there is a good compliance and the clientele is , well how do I put it.... more pleasant to deal with than in your average practice. I have since upped my prices and the only effect it had was more income :-) The customers like the one this morning (has made three appointments, turned up on none of them, stormed into treatment room this morning because his CNI cat needed some fluids and he wanted a cyst punctured - then complained about the price, he knows a vet who does the whole package for 10 Euros) are the ones I don't need anyway - they only cost time but bring in no money. I told him to go back to the cheap place, I'm not prepared to work for nothing, would he do that? We shall see if he ever comes back (hopefully not!)

Re: Too many vets?

Bob Russell — Sat, 16 Jul 2011 10:29:54 GMT

There is not much of a secret to this. Income per vet depends on practice takings less costs including salaries. The more vets the lower income per vet. This effect can be reduced in part because more vets with more enthusiasm will hopefully generate more work.

A good practice with happy clients in a 'good' area can charge more. This can be shared out! A 'budget' practice has to see more clients to generate the same money so vets would be expected to have to work more intensely.

Getting the balance right is difficult. If there is a fixed size pot and more vets average income has to be lower. The general public are not going to magically increase their spending habits to allow us to pay ourselves more.

Some practices will be in a better position to pay well and give good working hours but these will be balanced by those that cannot because of financial pressures. Some are just better run.

Last thing - never forget that some practice owners are paying themselves less than some of their staff!

Re: Too many vets?

Mark Hedberg — Sat, 16 Jul 2011 10:19:27 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="Tanya Fielding"]

Perhaps if we all work 3-4 days a week we can get the work/life balance right and spend some time with the kids not on a perminant guilt trip about missing school activities.

[/quote]

Sounds lovely, but I can't live on 2/3 of my salary which it woul equate too.

[/quote]

And yet there are practices who offer 4 day weeks and pay a living wage (Gillian Mostyn is the VS.org member I'm thinking of, but I do know other vets who do as well...) What's your secret, Gillian? :D

Re: Too many vets?

Clive Ansell — Sat, 16 Jul 2011 08:48:51 GMT

[quote user="plantagenet"]

[quote user="Clive Ansell"] I think we should sign up to the EU time directive and enforce it for employed people (As most of Europe does). [/quote]

I'd go bust - one less practice I suppose!

[/quote]

Many other countries have implemented it and are more productive in terms of GDP than the UK is.

Same number of hours worked; few extra people each doing fewer hours could be better for everyone perhaps?

Re: Too many vets?

plantagenet — Sat, 16 Jul 2011 08:45:49 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"] If working a 40 hour week does not provide an adequate salary, then it is time to start charging properly.[/quote]

Re: Too many vets?

plantagenet — Sat, 16 Jul 2011 08:30:10 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"] I think we should sign up to the EU time directive and enforce it for employed people (As most of Europe does). [/quote]

I'd go bust - one less practice I suppose!

Re: Too many vets?

Clive Ansell — Sat, 16 Jul 2011 07:51:57 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]

There still seems to be lots of jobs available, and many practices are finding it hard to get locums in the summer months.

OOH centres (you know the one I mean) always seem to be short of vets to cover shifts particularly at nights and weekends.

[/quote]

There is plenty of work in OOH centres if you are willing to work 14-15 hour night shifts, sometimes very busy without breaks, and prostitute yourself for peanuts. I earned more per hour driving HGV's at weekends in 1994/95 than I can earn now in an OOH clinic.

Re: Too many vets?

Clive Ansell — Sat, 16 Jul 2011 07:46:36 GMT

[quote user="Tanya Fielding"]

Perhaps if we all work 3-4 days a week we can get the work/life balance right and spend some time with the kids not on a permanent guilt trip about missing school activities.

[/quote]

I tend to agree. It does seem a nonsense (in all walks of life, not just our profession) that some employed people work in excess of 50, 60 or even 70 hours a week whilst there is a growing massive number of unemployed. I think we should sign up to the EU time directive and enforce it for employed people (As most of Europe does). Within the profession, many of us would welcome fewer hours. If working a 40 hour week does not provide an adequate salary, then it is time to start charging properly.

Re: Too many vets?

Robin Grimmer — Fri, 15 Jul 2011 23:29:54 GMT

There still seems to be lots of jobs available, and many practices are finding it hard to get locums in the summer months.

OOH centres (you know the one I mean) always seem to be short of vets to cover shifts particularly at nights and weekends.

Re: Too many vets?

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 15 Jul 2011 22:03:19 GMT

[quote user="Tanya Fielding"]

Perhaps if we all work 3-4 days a week we can get the work/life balance right and spend some time with the kids not on a perminant guilt trip about missing school activities.

[/quote]

Sounds lovely, but I can't live on 2/3 of my salary which it woul equate too.

Re: Too many vets?

Tanya Fielding — Fri, 15 Jul 2011 16:45:13 GMT

Perhaps if we all work 3-4 days a week we can get the work/life balance right and spend some time with the kids not on a perminant guilt trip about missing school activities.

Re: Too many vets?

Dagmar Steele — Fri, 15 Jul 2011 15:48:04 GMT

In my opinion we have been overproducing vets for ages (we don't have as many vets from abroad as the UK has). Unfortunately none of them want to do farm animals, there is a lack of vets in this area. This might be down to the fact that graduates are nearly all women and child care is not working very well for people working odd hours here. So for many opening up their own SA practice is the only option to work and be a mum. I have done the same, there was no way to have children and be fully employed. And no, I don't actually know how to solve this problem.

Re: Too many vets?

plantagenet — Fri, 15 Jul 2011 15:42:21 GMT

Are you over producing vets or are these non German graduates, that are contributing to the excessive numbers?

Re: Too many vets?

Dagmar Steele — Fri, 15 Jul 2011 15:38:06 GMT

this describes fairly well the situation in Germany for years now (small animals). Too many vets not charging what they should so they can't afford to pay their employees well enough. Frustrated employees opening up another one (wo)man small animal practice with low standards trying to get clients in by offering low prices. And we do have set fees, allowing a variation between base fee and three times base fee. It is illegal to go below, but still many people charge less or at least not as much as they could and should...