Another tragedy

Re: Another tragedy

Bob Russell — Thu, 30 Jun 2011 10:37:48 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Just because you feel bad about something you have done should not protect you from prosecution. Do you stop a prosecution for causing death by dangerous driving just because the driver feels regret afterwards?

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No - but I think genuine remorse shown by a guilty party should be taken into account when handing out punishment.

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I agree totally.

Remorse is a factor to be taken into account when sentencing rather than deciding to prosecute/punish.

Re: Another tragedy

bob lehner — Thu, 30 Jun 2011 10:04:40 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

[/quote]

No - but I think genuine remorse shown by a guilty party should be taken into account when handing out punishment.

Re: Another tragedy

Bob Russell — Thu, 30 Jun 2011 09:34:59 GMT

Prosecution is about deterrent as well as punishment.

I am sure he feels terrible about what has happened (as would any normal person). I know these things happen, we all make mistakes, sometimes terrible ones. If this individual is so 'forgetful' should he be in a position of responsibility?

If this is the second time this has happened to this handler either he is unfit to keep dogs or his working practices are putting the dogs under his care at unacceptable risk.

Re: Another tragedy

Amanda Nicholls — Thu, 30 Jun 2011 09:15:08 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]

When did responsibility for your own actions stop being a part of human life...?

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Completely agree, those poor dogs were dependent on the handler and he let them down and they suffered greatly. Of course he will feel bad but that doesn't mean he shouldn't be punished and hopefully banned from keeping animals in future as it is his second offence.

Re: Another tragedy

James Laidlaw — Wed, 29 Jun 2011 23:16:49 GMT

When did responsibility for your own actions stop being a part of human life...?

Re: Another tragedy

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 29 Jun 2011 17:44:57 GMT

or not. apparently.

google it.

Re: Another tragedy

Gareth Dowdeswell — Wed, 29 Jun 2011 17:18:23 GMT

Definately have sympathy for this man - if the circumstances are as described sounds like it was just human error rather than anything malicious, and I would expect that to be taken into account in any punishment.

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

I'm not condemning this man. I just think the same due process should be followed as if it was anyone else - including a vet! I suspect we would at the least be suspended for a while??????

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Pretty sure a vet was in front of the DC a few years back for doing the same thing when he left his dogs in a car parked outside the surgery. Think he was definately punished, can't remember if he was struck off or just suspended.

Re: Another tragedy

plantagenet — Wed, 29 Jun 2011 08:53:30 GMT

I have a friend who works in aircraft safety who tells me there are formulae to take human error into account because it does and will happen. I know I forget things and make mistakes and so far have been lucky that they have ended in catastrophe.

This person may have been suicidal at the time or very depressed, so yes I feel sympathy for any fellow human being who reaches the stage where their own death seems the solution.

There but for the grace of God.... does pass across my mind when I hear of some mistakes and there are some I really hope I would never make.

David, I wish I has your ..er.. confidence. (hate smileys - please don't be offended)

Re: Another tragedy

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 28 Jun 2011 23:57:30 GMT

The chief dog handler says he was just forgetful, and didn't deliberately leave his dogs in that car.

A member of the public does exactly the same thing and claims simple forgetfulness, rather than true neglect.

Do you believe them both? Are they treated in the same way?

I'm not condemning this man. I just think the same due process should be followed as if it was anyone else - including a vet! I suspect we would at the least be suspended for a while??????

Re: Another tragedy

Mark Holmes — Tue, 28 Jun 2011 23:34:14 GMT

I'm not saying any of these things should happen but that people are not prosecuted as criminals when they do. You can be the judge of whether they should, my point was the inconsistency.

Re: Another tragedy

David Mills — Tue, 28 Jun 2011 23:20:03 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]

Forgetting to turn the mains off does only affect me, but then I don't want to die and the consequences for me are greater than if I forgot the dog. The point is, forgetting is forgetting and some people are more prone to it than others.

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...ergo, if you're forgetful, as this chap has been twice now, don't assume responsibility in situations that could affect others. Do as much harm to yourself as you want by forgetting (who said natural selection was dead?) but don't inflict it on others

Re: Another tragedy

David Mills — Tue, 28 Jun 2011 23:17:32 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]

Oh and whilst you feel for the dogs as do I. I would prefer to have a sensible conversation rather than start accusing somebody of being incoherent.

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You misunderstand me. The incoherency applied to the examples themselves regarding the dogs in the car - I don't see them as comparable by their fundamental nature - not to you being incoherent. Apologies for confusion.

Botched operations shouldn't happen, that is why it's negligence when they do. I don't think 'accepted' is right. I'm sure the leg amputee will be compensated financially (although this isn't the point)

Re: Another tragedy

Mark Holmes — Tue, 28 Jun 2011 23:11:51 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

Agreed. But forgetting to turn the mains off and frying yourself affects your own health only in that instance. Forgetting about someone or something else - be it child, dog, rabbit - then makes your actions answerable beyond your own realm. It's fine to be negligent if only you get hurt; if not, then you must expect to face the consequences - that's part of the responsibility that comes with being in some way involved in the care of others. If you don't want that responsibility, or can't meet it, then don't get a dog etc.

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Re: Another tragedy

Mark Holmes — Tue, 28 Jun 2011 23:08:46 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]Isn't it odd how human error applies differently to different people? Surgeons get a good allowance. It's expected that they will occasionally have a bad day and kill/maim. It's factored into the surgical risks. Occasionally a soldier will kill a few civilians and he gets some allowance. Teachers can take children on a trip and lose the odd one and it's considered a tragic accident. Somebody , police officer or not makes a tragic mistake and human error seems to be forgotten. I'm not defending him as such but I am puzzled by the lack of consistancy.

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I think you're mixing metaphors here under the same catch-all. The nature of the examples you give differ wildly, and probably incoherently, from forgetting about a dog/dogs with whom you work most/all days for over an hour on the hottest day of the year i.e. this is one situation where the blame cannot be shifted to anything else than disgraceful, criminal negligence, regardless of reason. There are different judgable criteria for the examples you give - e.g. a surgeon doing a botch on a routine procedure is unacceptable, more acceptable if there are mitigating circumstances: there are risk-benefit analyses available. Cannot see how such applies to this tragedy.

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Quite the contrary, mistakes often happen when people are doing routine procedures and are hence over confident and not focused. The same police officer has been going to work every day with his dogs in the car and for the most part has not had to worry. Botched routine operations happen, its accepted. There has been somebody in the local hospital recently who has just had a leg amputated as a consequence of just that type of error. Oh and whilst you feel for the dogs as do I. I would prefer to have a sensible conversation rather than start accusing somebody of being incoherent.

Re: Another tragedy

David Mills — Tue, 28 Jun 2011 22:58:28 GMT

Re: Another tragedy

Mark Holmes — Tue, 28 Jun 2011 22:45:16 GMT

I know vets who have forgotten their dogs are in the car. The only difference is somebody else has remembered..... Not me by the way but I have forgotten things which could have ended in disaster had a particular set of circumstances arisen lots of times. Forgetting to turn off the electricity when rewiring a socket springs to mind but there are others. The thing about forgetting is that the brain, the thing you rely on to remember, fails you. The reason I try to be understanding is because I can see myself in his position. The thing you need to remember is if it can happen to somebody, like him in his position. Something similar be it dogs or some other tragedy could happen to me.

Re: Another tragedy

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 28 Jun 2011 22:33:51 GMT

An accident, by definition, cannot be predicted.

Leaving 2 dogs in a car, not even leaving the windows open, on the hottest day of the year? That cannot be called an accident. They cooked to death. It has got to be one of the worst ways to die.

Are you aware that this same police officer also killed a 5 month old puppy with the same 'accident' in 2004.

Still feel so understanding?

Re: Another tragedy

David Mills — Tue, 28 Jun 2011 22:30:54 GMT

[/quote]

Re: Another tragedy

Mark Holmes — Tue, 28 Jun 2011 22:21:05 GMT

Isn't it odd how human error applies differently to different people? Surgeons get a good allowance. It's expected that they will occasionally have a bad day and kill/maim. It's factored into the surgical risks. Occasionally a soldier will kill a few civilians and he gets some allowance. Teachers can take children on a trip and lose the odd one and it's considered a tragic accident. Somebody , police officer or not makes a tragic mistake and human error seems to be forgotten. I'm not defending him as such but I am puzzled by the lack of consistancy.

Re: Another tragedy

Ian Mostyn — Tue, 28 Jun 2011 21:56:16 GMT

The officer is a sergeant and senior dog handler who lost a dog (5 month puppy) in 2004 after leaving it in a hot car so this is a second offence. He should have known better and should be prosecuted as any normal person should be. He should be removed from the dog unit and put on regular duties and be grateful he still has a job. A ban from keeping animals would be appropriate as well.

Ian

Re: Another tragedy

Tedders — Tue, 28 Jun 2011 21:47:24 GMT

I'm wondering if he (somehow) completely forgot he had them in his car as apparently it was him who alerted his colleagues to the fact they were in there. If that is the case then I would say he does deserve sympathy as he will know full well how those dogs suffered and will be feeling dreadful about it (and there have been cases of people forgetting they had their baby/toddler in the car and the same thing happening so it's possible),

Re: Another tragedy

David Mills — Tue, 28 Jun 2011 19:30:24 GMT

The officer receives no sympathy from this end - just imagine being those dogs for that length of time. Horrific. Not a witch-hunt advocator, but bloody hell, 'forgetting' is neither an excuse, nor a reason: the perpetrator regardless of his subsequent guilt or actions should be prosecuted appropriately in line with current practice. Police/CPS are more than willing to allow RSPCA to be used as a charitable enforcement agency for the proles, so should be no different in this case, and they should cooperate fully, regardless of internal inquiries.

Re: Another tragedy

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 28 Jun 2011 18:32:05 GMT

The officer involved has apparently attempted to commit suicide - if that bit of news is correct I don't think further retribution would be necessary or appropriate.

Re: Another tragedy

Bob Russell — Tue, 28 Jun 2011 18:06:29 GMT

I find it very hard to believe that the Police did not learn the lessons when two Police dogs died last year from heat stroke. These should be the most experienced dog 'owners' in the world!

I am sure the officer involved is in a mess and should receive sympathy but do they never learn?

Re: Another tragedy

Eamon McAllister — Tue, 28 Jun 2011 17:47:07 GMT

In my experience they would both be making a meal of it had it been an ordinary member of the public at fault.