How would you deal with an animal healer?

Re: How would you deal with an animal healer?

svn — Tue, 05 Jul 2011 00:34:30 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]

Ultimately I don't believe in fairies and pixies but I think the world would be a much more exciting place if they existed and I prefer to keep checking the bottom of the garden just in case! (another metaphor)

[/quote]

From one Pratchett fan to another, I agree!

Well not with real life pixies etc of course........ but if the 'fairies happened to be small, tattooed in blue, with red hair, and liked drinkin' n fightin'!

Well I would be hollaring 'Nac Mac Feegle!'

Re: How would you deal with an animal healer?

Niall Taylor — Fri, 01 Jul 2011 11:58:37 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]If science can explain everything how do you explain the curse of the old dog's new collar! it is invariably fatal.[/quote]

Niall

Re: How would you deal with an animal healer?

Mark Holmes — Fri, 01 Jul 2011 11:23:58 GMT

If science can explain everything how do you explain the curse of the old dog's new collar! it is invariably fatal.

Re: How would you deal with an animal healer?

Julie Innes — Thu, 30 Jun 2011 23:23:33 GMT

I don't personally think that most alternative treatments work, but I have been under the impression that most of them do no harm. While I would never "refer" a patient for an alternative treatment, if a client wants to try it, so long as the animal is not suffering, I don't see how I can stop them.

Is there really any harm in, say, a dog wearing a copper-containing collar, alongside the traditional NSAIDs etc for OA? I try not to be "dismissive", as I do feel to categorically state "That won't work. No way. You must listen to me and only me, because I have studied for 5 years to become a vet and therefore know everything there is to know" just leads to clients backing off. I can't see how you gain clients' trust by telling them to trust you. I prefer to listen to their views then offer mine, and offer evidence/ studies etc to back those views. I have had far more satisfaction from seeing owners initially convinced that vaccination is the work of the devil come back to me year after year for vaccines after chatting to them without any confrontation or argument.

It strikes me when we talk about quackery and mumbo-jumbo, that, to many of our clients, much of what we do is every bit as unintelligeable. We give the animal "white pills" and it gets better. I am always surprised at getting clients for second opinion who have little or no understanding of what their animal is being treated for/ with and why! We can't criticise clients for turning to methods that "work" by unknown means, and yet prescribe a similar service from ourselves. Just because WE understand how it works doesn't mean they automatically do!

I think the days when people just accepted that medical professionals knew best and took what we say as gospel are over, and that in itself isn't a bad thing. It just means we need to be on top of our game, be ready with answers and be more open to discuss and explain. Time consuming, I know, but I personally think it is sometimes good to be challenged (although obviously not so good at 6.55pm on a Friday ) If people are seeking out alternative therapies, it is usually because they aren't getting the results they want from conventional medicine, and that is what we need to focus on, I think, rather than rubbishing the alternatives. I state again that I am NOT a believer in reiki etc, but if I can't do anything more for the dog with arthritis and the owner wants to try it then I won't fall out with them about it. I will, however, try to look at ways in which we could possibly improve things for them first, and keep the lines of communication open, so that the owner feels they can come back with no loss of face if (when!) the alternative doesn't work.

Re: How would you deal with an animal healer?

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 30 Jun 2011 19:52:11 GMT

Well before this thread started I'd never heard of Reiki now I've just had a 'client' shoving it down my throat. To cut a long story short a new client brought in a cat in poor condition 2 weeks ago and I had diagnosed a sublingual SCC. I gave him a poor prognosis and said that we could do a biopsy but it was unlikely to change the outcome and that the best I could offer was short term palliative treatment so he went a way to procrastinate. Cut to today: a neighbour brought the cat in, she had been feeding it on and off for several weeks because she thought it was a stray but now thought it was in very poor condition and needed to be PTS. It was emaciated, anorexic and salivating profusely. I scanned it found from the chip that it was the same cat as previously and called the owner. I told him I was disappointed that the cat had been allowed to get into the state that it had and that it had taken the neighbour to be concerned for it and he accused me of making the wrong diagnosis and that I'd said it would die in a few days but it was still alive after several (3) weeks and that was down to the holistic treatment and Reiki he had given it. Well I suggested (a euphamism) that either he let me treat it properly or he took it another vet as he clearly didn't trust me and that if I hadn't heard from another vet requesting the case history within 24 hours I would report him to the RSPCA for cruelty and the neighbour will certainly back me up. What a plonker. I await the call.

Re: How would you deal with an animal healer?

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 30 Jun 2011 13:10:17 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

[quote user="amanda nicholls"]

I wouldn't have interpreted it as being rude, maybe he would. If a devout believer told me they were praying for healing aid I would be dismissive of that too. Just because somebody really believes in something if it has no proof I don't feel the need to engage in a conversation with them or humour them. Life is too short.

[/quote]

And some vets wonder about declining client footfall...

[/quote]

I would rather have an empty waiting room and retire than entertain clients like this.

And as for the comparison between religious beliefs and quacks may I direct you all to the thread developing on religious slaughter.

Re: How would you deal with an animal healer?

Niall Taylor — Thu, 30 Jun 2011 08:48:49 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Whoops! Heavens, no! If that's the impression I lent then I am quite apologetic (and a bit red faced). I meant no such thing. Serves me right, posting after bedtime![/quote]

No, no, it is I who should be making the apology. I'm afraid I got you mixed up with Mark Holmes who seems to be persistently of the 'give it the benfit of the doubt' school of thought and, as a result I have come in at an excessively snarky level. Please ignore the second paragraph of my post.

Sorry 'bout that (as Hagrid would say) .

Niall

Re: How would you deal with an animal healer?

Mark Hedberg — Wed, 29 Jun 2011 23:19:39 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

Niall

[/quote]

Whoops! Heavens, no! If that's the impression I lent then I am quite apologetic (and a bit red faced). I meant no such thing. Serves me right, posting after bedtime!

I absolutely do not advocate or condone reiki, homeopathy, etc to "get the job done". I am advocating respectfully educating the client; which is obviously a lot easier said than done. All I ever wanted was to explain how important I felt respect and courtesy to the client was. I feel that separating the client's incorrect treatments from the client's good intentions (they want the cat to get better) is possible, if difficult.

Clients who ask my opinion on the above will get my opinion that they don't work. Full stop.

I find that many clients who ask about alternative therapies only want to do the very best for their pet possible, and want to "try everything", not that they lack faith in vet medicine. Taking the time to discuss it (alternative medicine) with them and get them to understand that we are doing everything can is often all they needed. A bit of reassurance that we're on the same side. And often that's the last I hear about alternative medicine.

But perhaps I'll just stop digging now. :)

Re: How would you deal with an animal healer?

Niall Taylor — Wed, 29 Jun 2011 22:58:30 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"] I try to take the view that I'm glad they bring them in, as opposed to not ever bring them in. Pets they can't bring in, I can't treat. If I fix it faster than they did, maybe they bring it in sooner.
I fully agree that we don't need to compromise our therapeutic integrity. I also believe firmly that without getting the client onboard, my own success will be limited as compliance will be less without the client's cooperation.
When one is "dismissive", whether for good or ill cause, it shows that something is unworthy of consideration. Clients (and indeed humans) are emotional creatures; and when you show them you consider their work unworthy of consideration, they can easily (correctly or incorrectly) extend that to feel that you believe them to be unworthy of consideration. This (no magic energy fields, I promise you) can increase client resistance and decrease client compliance, decreasing the chances of a successful outcome and causing more suffering for the unwitting patient.[/quote]

It is possible to get and keep the client onboard without appearing to condone the bogus treatments they are using, being 'dismissive' doesn't necessarily mean being rude. Taking the tack of gently explaining that there is no evidence behind a client's chosen alternative treatment, making them undersatand that in a sympathetic way while still working with them for the good of their animal is perfectly do-able, most clients will respect you for it. Many such clients have been (often delibarately) misled by propaganda from alternative practitioners and given simplistic explanations or having had evidence witheld from them and are pleased to be more informed on the subject. For instance many people equate homeopathy with herbal medicine, they don't realise that there is nothing in the remedies apart from sugar or water, many people incorrectly believe that chiropracters literally can realign spinal vertebrae.

The message I (and obviously others too) have been getting from your posts is that you have been advocating siding with the client and tacitly agreeing with their mistaken belief in homeopathy, reiki, chiropractic or whatever in order to 'get the job done'. Apologies if this is a misinterpretation but that is how it has appeared. That is an essentially short term tactic which misleads the client and will make them if anything more likely to turn to such practices in the future. I prefer to be honest in a non-confrontational way with my clients. I also prefer people to be that way with me - if I found a doctor was lying to me and fobbing me off with placebos rather than giving me a grown up explanation about my condition and its treatment I'd be as mad as hell and would find another doctor pdq.

Niall

Re: How would you deal with an animal healer?

Mark Hedberg — Wed, 29 Jun 2011 22:37:37 GMT

Only from reading what you wrote; I apologize if I misinterpreted it. I know a lot of clients (not chiropractors) who try and sort things on their own. I try to take the view that I'm glad they bring them in, as opposed to not ever bring them in. Pets they can't bring in, I can't treat. If I fix it faster than they did, maybe they bring it in sooner.

I fully agree that we don't need to compromise our therapeutic integrity. I also believe firmly that without getting the client onboard, my own success will be limited as compliance will be less without the client's cooperation.

When one is "dismissive", whether for good or ill cause, it shows that something is unworthy of consideration. Clients (and indeed humans) are emotional creatures; and when you show them you consider their work unworthy of consideration, they can easily (correctly or incorrectly) extend that to feel that you believe them to be unworthy of consideration. This (no magic energy fields, I promise you) can increase client resistance and decrease client compliance, decreasing the chances of a successful outcome and causing more suffering for the unwitting patient. (Paul Manning has an excellent PhD thesis on the subject of communication and compliance.)

We are scientific people working in a highly emotional field.

Re: How would you deal with an animal healer?

Amanda Nicholls — Wed, 29 Jun 2011 22:11:09 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

[quote user="Robert Whiteford"]

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]We stand here and promote the virtues of a modern, healthy and proactive lifestyle for our pets. [/quote]

Yes we do, and we have a firm belief in what we do. We wont be swayed by the occasional client that believes in pixies, and in the main our clients will thank us for that. They know where we stand - four square behind evidence based medicine. If they want to chose the alternative route that is up to them but they do so without our blessing. We should be the advocate for the animal and subjecting their pet to any procedure just because it does no harm is not a good enough reason so to do.

You dont have to be rude to people but you do have to stand up for what you stand for!

You also dont have to help others in their quackery because they didnt have the academic qualifications and application to study, that veterinary surgeons had, and now they have a direct conduit to healing that we somehow missed!

[/quote]

This is exactly what I'm trying to say; thank you for being more eloquent than I. :)

[/quote]

Really? Robert's post comes across to me in a very different way to your posts.

I was not rude, when the chiropractor told me his cat had been hiding under the bed for days and he had been 'treating' it at home but not noticed an improvement, I was dismissive of his treatments. I did not want to in any way give him the impression I felt it was ok to let an animal suffer by denying treatment by a vet. It turns out his teenage son persuaded him to bring the cat in, if it wasn't for the boy having some common sense the cat may have died under the bed! Yet you think i'm the jerk.

Re: How would you deal with an animal healer?

Mark Hedberg — Wed, 29 Jun 2011 21:44:05 GMT

[quote user="Robert Whiteford"]

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]We stand here and promote the virtues of a modern, healthy and proactive lifestyle for our pets. [/quote]

You dont have to be rude to people but you do have to stand up for what you stand for!

[/quote]

This is exactly what I'm trying to say; thank you for being more eloquent than I. :)

Re: How would you deal with an animal healer?

Robert Whiteford — Wed, 29 Jun 2011 21:16:12 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]We stand here and promote the virtues of a modern, healthy and proactive lifestyle for our pets. [/quote]

You dont have to be rude to people but you do have to stand up for what you stand for!

Re: How would you deal with an animal healer?

Amanda Nicholls — Wed, 29 Jun 2011 21:09:24 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

No, actually, I will say it. If someone came into your consulting room and starting dismissing your efforts to encourage neutering and vaccination, you'd be pissed as hell. If they came in and accused you of poisoning your patients by feeding them anything except raw meaty bones you'd be pissed as hell.

[/quote]

It is not possible to compare knowledge with belief. I know the benefits of neutering, vaccination and veterinary diets, I can find plenty of evidence to back up my claims. As a professional I am entitled to be treated with respect and would have no hesitation asking someone to leave if they were dismissing my efforts. I worked hard for my degree, I spend many hours keeping myself up to date, I know I am doing the best I can and I make a difference to the lives of pets and their owners. The reason I am dismissive of alternative practioners is they do not do any good and in some cases they exploite desparate people.

As for worrying about the decline in foot fall, I am not. I don't think being nice to people you don't agree with will improve compliance (these people don't vaccinate, don't buy food from us, only use us as a last resort). More importantly forcing myself to be nice to people when they are not doing the best for their animals will have a negative effect on my job satisfaction and mental wellbeing. The vast majority of owners want honest advice, they will trust us if we stick to the facts and they will be confident we are doing our best even if they know we don't have all the answers. For me it is important not to quietly condone alternative treatments.

Re: How would you deal with an animal healer?

Simon Neuhoff — Wed, 29 Jun 2011 21:06:10 GMT

Who said she was being condescending or a jerk? She said she was dismissive of the profession - she wasn't necessarily rude about it. Are you saying she shouldn't have ventured any opinion to this man who had not had his animal vaccinated and who thought reiki would cure his cat's fever? By pandering to his beliefs you give him credibility - and he will continue to do reiki on other people's animals and probably say something along the lines of: "the vet says its ok to do" which will quickly become "the vet says it works."

Re: How would you deal with an animal healer?

Mark Hedberg — Wed, 29 Jun 2011 20:35:34 GMT

Fine. I happen to be a fairly conventional vet myself. I vaccinate, I spay, and if a patient has a bacterial infection, I'll reach for the antibiotics. I agree that reiki, homeopathy, and magic crystals are not my particular cup of tea. I've never been to a bone rearranger and I don't think I'd go anyway. But being condescending and dismissive of your client is rude. If you don't interpret it that way, fine. You're right, life's too short.

We stand here and promote the virtues of a modern, healthy and proactive lifestyle for our pets. How exactly do we advance our own cause by being jerks about it?!

Re: How would you deal with an animal healer?

Niall Taylor — Wed, 29 Jun 2011 20:32:19 GMT

[quote user="amanda nicholls"]Just because somebody really believes in something if it has no proof I don't feel the need to engage in a conversation with them or humour them. Life is too short.[/quote]

Niall

Re: How would you deal with an animal healer?

Mark Hedberg — Wed, 29 Jun 2011 20:21:23 GMT

[quote user="amanda nicholls"]

[/quote]

And some vets wonder about declining client footfall...

(I could go on about catching flies with honey instead of vinegar but I think I'll just skip it. Life's too short, as you say. I will stop now before I say something I'll probably regret.)

Re: How would you deal with an animal healer?

Amanda Nicholls — Wed, 29 Jun 2011 18:55:45 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"][quote user="amanda nicholls"]

Good point! The cat of his I saw was pyrexic, lethargic and anorexic most likely due to viral infection (not vaccinated!!!). I didn't ask him what he had diagnosed or what treatment he had given as I assumed whatever he had done was completely ineffective and not harmful. He probably won't come back as I was quite dismissive of his profession so I doubt I'll get to ask him how he makes a diagnosis. How do they make a diagnosis in people, surely medical doctors are the only people able to make a diagnosis in people?

[/quote]

Still, why be rude to him? You wouldn't be dismissive and condescending if a devout believer said he'd prayed to his deity for healing aid, would you?

[/quote]

Re: How would you deal with an animal healer?

Simon Neuhoff — Wed, 29 Jun 2011 18:46:54 GMT

[quote user="Simon Neuhoff"]

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"][quote user="amanda nicholls"]

[/quote]

Still, why be rude to him? You wouldn't be dismissive and condescending if a devout believer said he'd prayed to his deity for healing aid, would you?

[/quote]

Mark quackery of any type is NOT the same as religion - these people are exploiting the gullible in order to make money so your analogy is not appropriate. The man in question may well believe he is doing his cat "good" but he needs to be disabused of this notion so that he seeks proper treatment immediately next time.

[/quote]

Actually on second thought having read what I wrote again maybe quackery and religion DO share a few things in common....

Re: How would you deal with an animal healer?

Simon Neuhoff — Wed, 29 Jun 2011 18:45:31 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"][quote user="amanda nicholls"]

[/quote]

Still, why be rude to him? You wouldn't be dismissive and condescending if a devout believer said he'd prayed to his deity for healing aid, would you?

[/quote]

Re: How would you deal with an animal healer?

Bob Russell — Wed, 29 Jun 2011 17:24:42 GMT

No point in being rude to anybody!

My clients know I have strong views on many things but (with the possible exception of veterinary homoeopathy) I aim to direct owners down a suitable path which I believe is best for the patient. If they wish to try alternative/complimentary therapies I will only object if I think it is potentially harmful.

This does not stretch to vets performing quackery (including homoeopathy) because they should know better! (naughty step for that comment)

Re: How would you deal with an animal healer?

Mark Hedberg — Wed, 29 Jun 2011 17:02:04 GMT

[quote user="amanda nicholls"]

[/quote]

Still, why be rude to him? You wouldn't be dismissive and condescending if a devout believer said he'd prayed to his deity for healing aid, would you?

Re: How would you deal with an animal healer?

Amanda Nicholls — Wed, 29 Jun 2011 16:35:03 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

[quote user="amanda nicholls"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

How does he treat these animals without a diagnosis, he is not qualified to make? Only vets are legally allowed to diagnose in animals (SQP's of course must also be able to diagnose in order to prescribe).

[/quote]

I am pretty sure we have a privileged position with making a diagnosis in animals. I think anyone can make a 'diagnosis' in man but must make it clear what qualifications (if any) they hold to enable them to make this diagnosis!!!

[/quote]

so animals are better protected than people from quacks!

Re: How would you deal with an animal healer?

Bob Russell — Wed, 29 Jun 2011 16:29:04 GMT

[quote user="amanda nicholls"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

[/quote]