Please help, normally sensible vet distraught

Re: Please help, normally sensible vet distraught

Rob Loxley — Wed, 13 Jul 2011 16:26:32 GMT

[quote user="Melanie Solomons"]We are charging equivalent of euthanasia and cremation fees to cover rehoming costs and have a specific form to sign the dog over to us[/quote]

I thought that from the later part of your post but good to be clear.

Re: Please help, normally sensible vet distraught

Melanie Solomons — Wed, 13 Jul 2011 16:07:06 GMT

We are charging equivalent of euthanasia and cremation fees to cover rehoming costs and have a specific form to sign the dog over to us.

All of our rehoming centres (and there a plenty of them) have a waiting list of several weeks to months and are full.

Re: Please help, normally sensible vet distraught

Rob Loxley — Tue, 12 Jul 2011 17:54:33 GMT

[quote user="Melanie Solomons"]charge the euthanasia and cremation fee and make them pay at the time. We then foster the dog within the practice (quite a few volunteers) and rehome it ourselves[/quote]

Are you agreeing to perform euthanasia and taking payment for this from the owners, and subsequently not doing this and rehoming the animal? (If so may I remind you of http://www.rcvs.org.uk/news-and-events/news/severe-reprimand-for-vet-who-disregarded-client-8217-s-instru/)

Or are you getting the owner to sign the dog over and charging the equivalent of euthanasia and cremation fees to cover rehoming costs?

If the latter why not get them to sign the animal over to a rehoming centre?

Re: Please help, normally sensible vet distraught

Melanie Solomons — Tue, 12 Jul 2011 16:57:22 GMT

I am very lucky that I work in a practice with a 'stray animal fund' funded through the puppy parties voluntary contributions. We take these (thank god) rare cases on from the owner(where we feel that PTS is not justified), charge the euthanasia and cremation fee and make them pay at the time. We then foster the dog within the practice (quite a few volunteers) and rehome it ourselves.

It does sometimes mean we have a dog for a few months but we always find a home. And as we have an inhouse behaviourist we get her to assess the dog as well, with the warning to the ex-owners that we will put the dog down if we feel that there is a genuine problem.

This is by no means an ideal situation but makes everyone feel quite good about refusing euthanasia if necessary and being able to offer an alternative.

Re: Please help, normally sensible vet distraught

Nixthevet — Mon, 11 Jul 2011 19:48:55 GMT

Hey Anon.

Hopefully you hvae had time to get over this a little now. I completely understand how distraught you were.

My only advise ,on top of what others have said, is to have a chat with the owner of your practice and get 'permission' to kindly refuse to do this in teh future.

I was terrified when a few months inot a new position I wanted to refuse to put 5 Yorkies to sleep that an owner had been left by her father- but was very pleasently surprised when the otherwie very stoical practice owner said he would back me up 100%. Yes, the lady maybe did go down the road and have them put to sleep anyway...but I tried to do my bit and use it as an opportunity to ensure that she knew of all the re-homing options before sending her away, and at the end of the day I knew that I had done what I could and would not have to picture their bodies all lined up in a row.

Sometimes we have to protect ourselves from the psychological pressures that our different beliefs put us under. Some vets (unfortnately) wouldn't bat an eyelid in carrying out the euthanasia....so let them be the ones to do it....as they will still sleep at night and our jobs are tough enough!

Re: Please help, normally sensible vet distraught

Vet2Vet — Mon, 04 Jul 2011 20:41:55 GMT

Brings back memories - personal ones - of a lovely but lame lab that I rescued from a farmer who had wanted him for working with the gun.

He turned into a fabulous loyal companion, sharing my car, sleeping with me in the luton of the horsebox when we were away from home with the horses. He was the only dog I have ever had who wasn't somehow wary of me - the one who gets armed with syringe and needle if they're poorly, or at booster time!

Then one evening it was all quiet with no dogs harooshing around under our feet, no thumping tails against the cupboards, so I went off out to search.

He'd chased one of our Suffolk sheep and had one cornered and was proceeding to devour its rear end. He and a dozy Pyrador had got the excitement of the chase in them, and he had been the ringleader.

Ten minutes later he had gone, and was wrapped up in a body bag.

A very sad night, that night.

Quote This Post

Quote / Review Entire Thread

I do sympathise for your loss .

Re: Please help, normally sensible vet distraught

George Cooper — Mon, 04 Jul 2011 16:09:15 GMT

Brings back memories - personal ones - of a lovely but lame lab that I rescued from a farmer who had wanted him for working with the gun.

Then one evening it was all quiet with no dogs harooshing around under our feet, no thumping tails against the cupboards, so I went off out to search.

He'd chased one of our Suffolk sheep and had one cornered and was proceeding to devour its rear end. He and a dozy Pyrador had got the excitement of the chase in them, and he had been the ringleader.

Ten minutes later he had gone, and was wrapped up in a body bag.

A very sad night, that night.

Re: Please help, normally sensible vet distraught

Sara Ramsey — Wed, 29 Jun 2011 18:19:47 GMT

Just yesterday I had an appointment " behavioural problem/PTS" it was five month old labrador cross. It really upsets me and as the owners weren't adamant we had a long discussion about normal dog behaviour - he was a very boisterous pushy young entire dog who was desparately in need of discipline. I believe there are very few truly nasty agressive dogs especially at 5 mths old. It upsets me that people take on these pups and expect them to grow up perfectly by themselves. On the flip side though, I am worried that if a serious incident happens I could have prevented it by euthanasing the dog. I have recommended taking absolutely no risks, seeing our local behaviourist and possibly re-homing to someone suitable which would have to be done privately.

I really hope we don't end up putting down this dog.

Re: Please help, normally sensible vet distraught

mariette asselbergs — Tue, 28 Jun 2011 18:14:47 GMT

This is a horrible experience, and you know best what kind of person came with the dog (distressed and upset or indifferent and angry, dumping a spoiled toy or getting rid of a nightmare, under pressure of bystanders, husband, family, neighbours?) Maybe it helps to try to imagine that that person also may have gone through a terrifying experience. What happened to the poor goose? Did it survive and if so what happened to it? Yes every labrador may chase a goose to retrieve it, but to tear it to pieces? It maybe out of ignorance but I can imagine that the owner may have had horrible visions of the same big strong happy labrador attacking a child. (Do not ever trust or leave big dogs alone with a small child, a dog is a predator, and a child may under circumstances become similar to a prey). Wrong maybe, but (s)he may have been terrified and not wanting the risk. And besides, labradors may all love to chase flappy things, they are not supposed to in an uncontroled way, everywhere in the countryside you have to keep your dog under control. So what is the future for a 14 month old labrador with a taste of chasing and killing birds? Forever be on the lead? No more free runs in the country, or always with the owner scarecd that he will run off? It is a pity that it wasn't possible to get the owner to agree to a think again, or consider an alternative. All of this written just to maybe reconcile you with what has happened and that you may have done the only thing possible in these circumstances with no suffering to the dog.

Mariette

Re: Please help, normally sensible vet distraught

Dagmar Steele — Tue, 28 Jun 2011 17:21:59 GMT

I guess for once I am lucky to work in Germany. I wouldn't have been allowed to put that dog down by our law, we can only euthanize if ill beyond rescue and suffering or a threat for the public (not a threat for ducks!). Otherwise rehoming is the only legal option. I must say I am very happy about that.

Re: Please help, normally sensible vet distraught

scarlet — Tue, 28 Jun 2011 16:51:08 GMT

if you had refused to do it , she would have taken it somewhere else and had it done. at least you know that you did it peacefully and with minimal stress to the dog. i have never forgotten when i was very new to practice being told to go out and euthanase a perfectly healthy litter of kittens - the owner let her queen have litter after litter let them get to 12 wks then had a housecall to euthanase them "so they would never have a bad life" i was distraught. nothing i said made any impression as no-one had made a fuss before (1983) . i can still see their little dead bodies............. it is my greatest regret in 29yrs of vetting . i realised too late that even though you are paid to work by someone else, and the procedure is a sanctioned veterinary act , you have a right to say no.

however i am certain the dog owner would have gone elsewhere and had it done in this instance.

Re: Please help, normally sensible vet distraught

patrick murphy — Sat, 25 Jun 2011 12:36:15 GMT

my mentor, if he felt it was unjustified (we worked in cottage country so lots of weekenders) would make them hold the dog. it worked pretty good.

Re: Please help, normally sensible vet distraught

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 25 Jun 2011 09:58:57 GMT

My sympathy Anon it's the owners fault,not yours Some owners can be bulies, especially towards assistants, who, unlike Martin and myself,don't have the option of telling them to take a running jump I know it's difficult but just try to remember the dog didn't suffer

Wynne

Re: Please help, normally sensible vet distraught

Rob Davis — Sat, 25 Jun 2011 08:50:57 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Please, anyone, cite a labrador that won't chase game birds....... [not ones that are too fat!][/quote]

My (skinny) labrador gets bullied by our chickens - they chase him away if he tries to pinch their food. He has a continual conflict between his stomach telling him to eat whatever he can, and his (very small) brain telling him the mean flappy things will peck him if he listens to his stomach....

Re: Please help, normally sensible vet distraught

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 24 Jun 2011 23:20:33 GMT

I hope you charged her (somehow I picture this owner as female) lots and LOTS of money.

Call me cynical, but if euthanasia is not a cheap option but a very expensive one it tends to make people have second thoughts.

Re: Please help, normally sensible vet distraught

Amanda Nicholls — Fri, 24 Jun 2011 21:20:30 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]

A very sad story - but just a reflection that in our society many people are totally divorced from nature, predation and death.

I frequently remind owners that dogs are just wild, hunting animals that decided to move in with us relatively recently in evolutionary terms and along with most domesticated animals retain many of their primeval instincts. They are humanised, but not human.

Sadly owners will think it cute or clever if the dog chases a ball or fluffy toy, but not if it's a rabbit or bird.

Particularly tough on a retriever breed which for generations has been selectively bred for the purpose of going after flappy birds.

[/quote]

Couldn't agree more with what you have said, although people have a very different opinion when it comes to cats, I have not had a request to euthanase one for torturing and killing the local wildlife population!

Anon - I hope you have had a better day today. Unfortunately we are often faced with euthanasing animals when we don't feel comfotable, often it is for financial reasons when the owners have been too irresponsible to take out insurance and we are expected to treat for free or feel bad for euthanasing an animal that could be treated.

I agree with others and try to remember that the dog did not suffer, was not aware of its future and had someone caring to show respect at the end.

Re: Please help, normally sensible vet distraught

hazelbentall — Fri, 24 Jun 2011 19:20:30 GMT

I am so sorry that you feel so devastated, maybe trying to treat yourself as you would a colleague who had found themselves in the same position would help. We are often much tougher on ourselves than we are on other people.

The facts are that the owner was entitled to have her dog euthanased, as RCVS tells us, and it's very unfortunate that you were the chosen person. Most owners are not like that, and indeed usually hang on longer than they should. You could consider writing to her to sack her from the practice, saying your positions on animal welfare and ethics are not in harmony- or she doesn't appreciate the service your practice has to offer, or some other euphemism VDS can assure you won't get you in trouble with RCVS. Clients are usually deeply shocked to be told their custom is not welcome (unless you do it all the time!) and it gives pause for thought. With any luck she will get some small appreciation that this is not what you have gone through 5 years of uni and stick at through highs and lows, to kill a dog you thought should have life.

But time will help, and look back through some of the nice, morale boosting letters or records from the sensible grateful people who make up the bulk of our clients. And ask the people in your practice who are not backing you up, what they would have done in the face of RCVS advice?

Remember Vet Helpline too

Good luck

Re: Please help, normally sensible vet distraught

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 24 Jun 2011 18:33:21 GMT

[[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

Thank you especially Martin - I usually respond better to a kick than sympathy. In all honesty I wouldn't do the same again. I'd tell her to leg it, but the client has several animals with this practice and it's not my practice to make client-losing decisions. However I think in future I'll take the risk!

[/quote]

Thank you, I was half expecting someone to tell me off for being hard hearted. I would also reflect that the owners probably had a hidden agenda and this was an excuse either that or they don't have a concept of the real world and the dog is better off without them, at least he'll be chasing geese in doggie heaven! I have the luxury of being sole-charge so I can tell the clients what I think without risking anyone else's takings, consequently I don't have many clients - but heck I sleep well in my bed at night.

Re: Please help, normally sensible vet distraught

bob lehner — Fri, 24 Jun 2011 17:20:49 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Please, anyone, cite a labrador that won't chase game birds....... [[/quote]

A very sad story - but just a reflection that in our society many people are totally divorced from nature, predation and death.

Sadly owners will think it cute or clever if the dog chases a ball or fluffy toy, but not if it's a rabbit or bird.

Particularly tough on a retriever breed which for generations has been selectively bred for the purpose of going after flappy birds.

Re: Please help, normally sensible vet distraught

Bob Russell — Fri, 24 Jun 2011 16:59:41 GMT

My dogs live their lives on a knife edge all the time! Our house has that very lived in look!!

Re: Please help, normally sensible vet distraught

Anthony Todd — Fri, 24 Jun 2011 16:30:40 GMT

I always justified these sort of sad occasions by realising that the dog didn't realise or suffer.

If you had refused, the owner, who had made up his mind, it wasn't you,remember, would only edit his story and go to another vet and insist that the soppy lab. had bitten a child ,so the result would be the same, possibly without your obvious sympathy for the dog.

Please, anyone, cite a labrador that won't chase game birds....... [not ones that are too fat!]

Re: Please help, normally sensible vet distraught

Mark Holmes — Fri, 24 Jun 2011 15:57:34 GMT

My dog chewed a hole in the shed and ate half of my day old chicks last weekend, she is very lucky not to have been there to great your labrador !

Re: Please help, normally sensible vet distraught

fluffygirl — Fri, 24 Jun 2011 15:53:32 GMT

A few years ago I had a client hand in their rescued ex-racing greyhound to the local animal shelter after 2 weeks because she was appalled that it liked to chase pheasants! Some people have a strange concept of how dogs should behave! I agree that a labrador going for a goose is not the same league as attacking a person. If it were, my dogs must be some of the most dangerous around - they've had hares, rabbits, pheasants, rats and even a young deer before today.

Don't feel too bad. If the client was that set in their mind, even if you had refused, the dog would have been euthanased by someone else. Sometimes this job is great, sometimes its pants! Time and wine tend to put things into perspective.

Re: Please help, normally sensible vet distraught

Robin Grimmer — Fri, 24 Jun 2011 14:27:10 GMT

I agree with the others. If you are feeling guilty about it , it's because you were pressured in to doing something you didn't want to do.

If the dog had bitten a child then that's a different matter. But dismembering a goose, however gruesome that may have been is just predator vs prey.

If you weren't comfortable with doing it then you should have refused. Just because a client requests it, or even demands it, it doesn't mean you

have to do it if you don't think it is clinically or ethically justfied.

Re: Please help, normally sensible vet distraught

Richard Carter — Fri, 24 Jun 2011 12:28:42 GMT

Seen similar and sympathise. Even had one of my reception staff one day come out with the rubbish about 'once tasted blood' Think one look at my face going purple made her rethink that one in a hurry but there seems to be enough cr*p anecdote and advice out there to keep the myths going.