***** Bad Debtors!

Re: ***** Bad Debtors!

Nixthevet — Mon, 11 Jul 2011 20:04:13 GMT

has anyone used 'Vet Debts' and if so how do they get around the data protection issue?

Apparently you can screen clients before giving them credit......

Re: ***** Bad Debtors!

J G Wray — Sat, 25 Jun 2011 23:45:01 GMT

[quote user="plantagenet"]Are we allowed to send a history with the financial information included?[/quote]

The RCVS default position is that clinical histories are just that, they pertain to the animal only. Because an animal cannot own a history there is no problem sending the history.

However, most histories become "contaminated" with data, with information relating to the owner. At that point the history is personalised to someone, it is theirs and is covered by the Data Protection Act. This means personal comments as well as any financial info are covered. These days, only the most peculiar of practices would not have a DPA registration along with clearly stated Terms and Conditions of provision of good and services. The DPA registration document allows you, within certain limits, to define what data you hold, handle, pass on and dispose of. YOur Ts and Cs document, which forms part of the nebulous "client contract" c an be referred to and if you are smart you can find condtions under which you would pass this info on to third parties. SPVS and VDS are quite strong on this and a RCVS Councillor called Bob Partridge is v well informed and approachable.

However, none of them speak for RCVS who are profoundly limp wristed on this. The best you will get out of them is advice to exploit your excellent working relationship with the neighbouring superseding practice and have a mechanism to let them know, unofficially and untraceably.

On a more practical note, if you have the chance to sack the client, then in your standard profroma letter (VDS have them, RCVS sort of have them) include a phrase along the lines of " When you [sacked client] have registered with a new practice we will pass on all relevant details.." Nice and ambiguous. It won't rattle the diehards, but then again not much will.

JGW

Re: ***** Bad Debtors!

plantagenet — Sat, 25 Jun 2011 22:48:03 GMT

Are we allowed to send a history with the financial information included?

I do agree the RCVS could be more helpful on that issue.

Re: ***** Bad Debtors!

Tanya Fielding — Sat, 25 Jun 2011 15:03:07 GMT

Why can the RCVS stop us from telling neighbouring practices of bad debtors when we get so upset, another case of not looking after it's members. My practice wont release a history if money is outstanding.

Re: ***** Bad Debtors!

Stephen Courtney — Fri, 24 Jun 2011 21:36:56 GMT

I would not be able to euthanase a dystocia case over finances. I'm an employee, not an owner, but equally it is not my job to extract payment either. I do my job according to RCVS oath/ personal ethics first. This is one of the reasons why I am happy to be an employee.

But i would certainly tell the owner that they would need to arrange either payment in full before taking the bitch and pups home, or agree a payment plan with a suitable up-front payment with hospital management first. As I said, not my job to play hard nose, especially out of hours. thank God.

Re: ***** Bad Debtors!

Mark Holmes — Fri, 24 Jun 2011 14:23:13 GMT

I appreciate that total bad debt is expensive, but the practice in question managed to foster a very open attitude to costs, one which I find less open in "bad debt is evil" practices. Therefore clients were encouraged to discuss potential problems early on.

The discussion gave caesars as an example earlier. The variable costs on a csection will be what £50 -£75ish? £100 including VAT? There is no reason to look at euthanasia. Take a minimum £150 as a deposit and take punt on the rest providing you are not laying off other paying work. Do the proceedure which takes 30-45 minutes, over time you will have some bad debt but you will be better off than declining the work or euthanasing. If somebody said to me "stand here, chat to the nurses and listen to the radio for 30 minutes (which is what a csection is essentially) and there is a 30% chance I will pay you £500 (the balance ie £700-£200 deposit) I would be happy to give it a go but only once every avenue for payment at the time had been explored.

Re: ***** Bad Debtors!

Bob Russell — Fri, 24 Jun 2011 11:02:18 GMT

Unfortunately many of the bad debts are total so absolutely no money is received therefore it is actually a drain on the practice income that has to be made up by paying clients.Good clients are subsidising the bad.

There is a big difference between performing procedures at cost and at a loss.

I agree that a certain amount of work can be done for 'social' reasons at cost but bad debtors are abusing the system.

Re: ***** Bad Debtors!

Mark Holmes — Fri, 24 Jun 2011 10:20:59 GMT

Back to bad debts, I used to work for a vet who had a fairly liberal attitude to bad debt and would readily (perhaps too readily) enter into credit arrangements and I have used his arguments to keep things in perspective.

First every attempt should be made to get payment when due, which is fairly self explainatory. Beyond that clients who were unable to pay in full were credit reference checked and whilst not done there, I guess you could land registery check as well. However he would work, provided his variable costs were covered, (and to be fair these are often very small,) on the basis that he might as well take a punt on some money than turn it down. Fixed costs do need to be covered in the long run, but anything earned over variable costs is a contribution towards fixed costs and profit and is worth having.

He didn't focus on the debt that turned bad but on the additional earnings he made using this attitude and calculated that while his "bad debt" was present. He still wouldn't have earned it if he had turned the work down and hence was no worse off for it but was better off to the tune of a number of thousend a year from those cases where it was paid in full (or in part over and above variable costs) There was also the additional benefit of the good will from the rest of the honest clients who do resent being treated like criminals for that small percentage that act like criminals.

Re: ***** Bad Debtors!

Bob Russell — Fri, 24 Jun 2011 09:41:10 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]I have three children and didn't feel a thing with any of them![/quote]

In which case you are lucky - I think I remember making Ian feel some pain at some point...

Having said that he wasn't there for the 2nd - he was spaying a bitch at the time....the joys of being a one man practice!! Should have done better with my timing I suppose.....

[/quote]

Shelling peas - second one took half an hour - good job the level crossing gates at Brockenhurst were up! I had to shout at the midwife 'if she says the baby is coming, the baby is coming!' - the language was ripe tho'!

Re: ***** Bad Debtors!

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 23 Jun 2011 18:38:21 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]I have three children and didn't feel a thing with any of them![/quote]

In which case you are lucky - I think I remember making Ian feel some pain at some point...

Having said that he wasn't there for the 2nd - he was spaying a bitch at the time....the joys of being a one man practice!! Should have done better with my timing I suppose.....

Re: ***** Bad Debtors!

Bob Russell — Thu, 23 Jun 2011 17:18:46 GMT

Not sure what the fuss is about having babies. I have three children and didn't feel a thing with any of them!

I have given myself one star to save all the women the trouble!

Re: ***** Bad Debtors!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 23 Jun 2011 16:50:51 GMT

Ian LOL and LOL

Wynne

Re: ***** Bad Debtors!

Ian Mostyn — Thu, 23 Jun 2011 16:28:18 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]why do you think it's called labour?[/quote]

Because everything is red and all babies look like Gordon Brown???????

Re: ***** Bad Debtors!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 23 Jun 2011 15:19:19 GMT

Well said Gillian I totally agree with you-and I've done Monday morning ceasars when the uterus is black, and the puppies dead,and the bitch toxic and with 2y peritonitis -all because the owner would'nt pay the OOH charge, and labour had started Sat lunchtime If the RSPCA wanted to prosecute the owner I would appear for the prosecution,and if they wanted to prosecute a veterinary surgeon who had said the bitch was alright towait, then I would alsoappear for the prosecution

Wynne

Re: ***** Bad Debtors!

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 23 Jun 2011 14:57:13 GMT

I had 2 labours with only a small amount of entonox. I agree, labour should be painful. IF it is a normal labour then the pain is manageable.

We are talking about a bitch with dystochia. That is very different. That is both an emergency AND life-threatening.

You've got me wondering...what would you consider an emergency then?

Re: ***** Bad Debtors!

David Mills — Thu, 23 Jun 2011 14:12:56 GMT

True, no contractions this end. I meant as in terms of true life-threatening emergency that has to be done there and then without any prior regard for payment.

Interesting ethical point though - should you treat the pain associated wth labour given it's a pain brought about via a natural, non- degenerative process, and one that is almost essential in ensuring offspring-mother bonding? And what to use that isn't going to have any effects on the offsrping? Opiods: no. Nsaids: no.

Anthropomorphism....

Re: ***** Bad Debtors!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 23 Jun 2011 11:47:39 GMT

Though I've not had children, I agree with Gillian on this one-why do you think it's called labour?

Wynne

Re: ***** Bad Debtors!

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 23 Jun 2011 11:30:12 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]C-sections are not things that need doing there and then, I rarely think the bitch is ever 'suffering' in the very immediate sense[/quote]

Hmmm. Says a man who has never felt a contraction.

I disagree.

Re: ***** Bad Debtors!

David Mills — Thu, 23 Jun 2011 02:21:08 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

I had a stand off with a client recently in an OOH clinic where their policy is strictly payment in advance except for essential emergency treatment or for PTS in cases of suffering. It was Bulldog needing a C-section but the owner claimed to have no money, no credit card and was unable to phone a friend, so I offered PTS and home to bury for 70 quid. After much going around the houses, threats of going to the papers, reporting to the RCVS and RSPCA, this chap produced a £1000 in £50 notes and slammed it on the counter - this was a case where he was obviously trying to avoid paying although was clearly able to.

[/quote]

Satisfying. I often find opening the door and saying no money, no op, you can go somewhere else. C-sections are not things that need doing there and then, I rarely think the bitch is ever 'suffering' in the very immediate sense - perhaps its callous but the pedigree breeders are more concerned about the expensive pups not making it. People have credit cards. Simply put it to them that the price they'll get for the pups will pay off the card in a couple of months time. There are very, very, very few people who will not be able to rustle up even cost price before an op. Even if asking p***es them off, you don't want them as clients anyway.

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

In another case last summer, a cat belonging to a known bad debtor presented in dystocia needing a C-section, again owners have no money, so I offered PTS. However in this case I had mutiny in the ranks and all 4 nurses refused to help or support me, threatened to walk out, and insisted I do the C-section, so I did. The owner of this single vet practice was in south Africa on holiday so could not make the decision himself. Cat subsequently got mastitis too and received more pro bono treatment. There is now a £700 or so debt with more chance of flying to the moon unaided than recovering it, and boss is not a happy chappie. What can you do? maybe the nurses should settle the account, it would only be £175 each ??

[/quote]

A tough one. It is, however, you that is responsible for the animal, not the nurses. It's easy to spend someone else's money on some over-sympathetic anthropomorphic folly - if they feel that strongly £175 shouldn't be too much of a stretch for them. I'd have let them walk, and see what their boss said when he got back... (and euthanased the cat myself unaided)

Re: ***** Bad Debtors!

Robert Wilson — Thu, 23 Jun 2011 00:13:36 GMT

Another good tip is to check the Land Registry entry for the address; often gives you the full name of the person who owns the mortgage and reassures me that they probably don't want a CCJ against their name. If the mortgage is in the name of a housing association, then forget it, write it off and don't lose any more sleep over it. Just sack the client (always makes me feel better). Money claim online is great!

Land registry search costs £4 which I add to the account.

Re: ***** Bad Debtors!

patrick murphy — Wed, 08 Jun 2011 10:31:49 GMT

I found it very interesting that when I posted about the 'bad debtors amongst us'i .e. the very tightly worded insurance policies that we are directed to by our benefactors, and that with that specific wording virtually none of us are protected from major debts of an internal nature, that nobody replied. I am owed £16,000 plus by the theif, who having now come out of jail has offered to pay me £100.00 per month, I guess forever.

please read your policy terms, the underwriters sure do.

Re: ***** Bad Debtors!

Clive Ansell — Wed, 08 Jun 2011 10:14:19 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

Most of our larger bad debts are from c-sections. There's just not a lot you can do about that one,. unless you're happy to euthanase a healthy dog and a belly full of puppies. If you aren't (and I don't condemn people who are - I just can't) then you're doomed to a few bad debts.

[/quote]

It is a difficult area I know.

From a welfare viewpoint, PTS would probably have been the best option for this dog, which was in poor condition and had had endless litters, just a money making puppy producing machine. He declined speying at the same time (Another topic to debate - should it be enforced?). Good news is that dog and 7 puppies were fine (Except for being Bulldogs).

Re: ***** Bad Debtors!

Richard Huddart — Tue, 07 Jun 2011 23:54:40 GMT

This usually comes down to a personal satisfaction issue. We've been stung a few times, but my favourite was over an Italian Spinone caesar about 20 years ago - the owner boasted that each of the 9 puppies delivered would pay for the operation twice over! Didn't pay our bill though! Anyway the delightful chap was soon in prison for insurance fraud and my veterinary partner bought his beautiful house - reposessed - so some compensation.

Re: ***** Bad Debtors!

Sara Ramsey — Tue, 07 Jun 2011 21:55:24 GMT

I completely sympathise. Every time I get taken with promises to pay and 90% let me down. It's very depressing.

Also in this economic climate, many of out clients are struggling (we are not in an affluent area) and I find consults are taking longer and longer going thorough option a,b,c,d and printing estimates -more time, less job satisfaction and less cash for the bosses.

Anyone got any advice on how to remain postive?

Re: ***** Bad Debtors!

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 07 Jun 2011 21:21:38 GMT

Sometimes it just really isn't worth your time and stress. Every time you're chasing it up it annoys you again. And again.