Rote Learning.

Re: Rote Learning.

Kate Richardson — Wed, 11 May 2011 12:45:02 GMT

[quote user="phipps"]

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]I do have a strange love of sheep, possibly caused by my lambing days as a student[/quote]

Or perhaps some New Zealand ancestry?

[/quote]

Re: Rote Learning.

Glen McIntosh — Tue, 10 May 2011 12:35:38 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]I do have a strange love of sheep, possibly caused by my lambing days as a student[/quote]

Or perhaps some New Zealand ancestry?

Re: Rote Learning.

Tim Cheyne — Tue, 10 May 2011 05:03:44 GMT

In the dim distant past, in my Finals, during a discussion on trace element deficiencies I was asked the distribution rate of cobalt on a field. I suppose that I should have fudged the answer and replied 'very low' or some such but instead I said "I don't know but I know where to find out." I did pass but later my internal examiner was furious, "You must never say you do not know". Why not? Over the years I have said it many times and never regretted it. On the other hand I have met vets who rarely offer an answer from their own knowledge but instead rush immediately to a book and produce it opened at the correct page. They do not inspire confidence.

Tim.

Re: Rote Learning.

Kate Richardson — Mon, 09 May 2011 23:45:50 GMT

[quote user="fluffygirl"]I was asked in my Finals to suggest a synchronisation protocol for cattle ( or somesuch, its ages since I did any cow work!) - they actually expected me to repeat verbatim the precise schedule as in 'Day 1, insert PRID..... I replied that the semen companies usually provide one and I would refer to this if the circumstance arose. Needless to say I did't get a distinction [/quote]

Don't worry- I was asked about how to care for lambs in my second year animal husbandry exams- I pretty much said just 'chuck em in a field'. I think I failed that exam, first exam I'd ever failed in my life which was a novelty! I freely admit am not from a farming background although I do have a strange love of sheep, possibly caused by my lambing days as a student, happy days.

Anyway aside from that, I remember the first time I truly felt confident as a vet. It was when I reached the point of being happy to say to a client, ' I don't know, but I know how to find out'.

Never be afraid to look things up or ask. Your clients will appreciate it I promise.

Re: Rote Learning.

fluffygirl — Mon, 09 May 2011 18:51:03 GMT

I was asked in my Finals to suggest a synchronisation protocol for cattle ( or somesuch, its ages since I did any cow work!) - they actually expected me to repeat verbatim the precise schedule as in 'Day 1, insert PRID..... I replied that the semen companies usually provide one and I would refer to this if the circumstance arose. Needless to say I did't get a distinction

Not sure what the point of remembering lists of stuff is when there is plenty of reference material available - whats more important I think is that you know why you're giving the drug, doing the test etc., something that seems to elude some vet students and new grads.

Or maybe I'm just saying that because I usually can't remember what I had for breakfast yesterday!

Re: Rote Learning.

Tim Cheyne — Mon, 09 May 2011 17:58:38 GMT

By coincidence the BBC Magazine website this evening has a comment on learning by rote.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13333117

Tim.

Re: Rote Learning.

Victoria Tannahill — Mon, 09 May 2011 17:02:57 GMT

I distinctly remember being told at uni that the only two dose rates we needed to remember off-by-heart were adrenaline and pentoject.

I have no qualms with looking up doses in the consult room, and frequently do, for those drugs that I am not using on a frequent basis.

Re: Rote Learning.

Tim Cheyne — Mon, 09 May 2011 16:23:09 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

Should those of us in practice and veterinary students be expected to learn off by heart things such as drug doses, fluid therapy rates, normal biochemistry ranges etc. Or is it acceptable to know where to look things up as and when you need them ?

[/quote]

I certainly would not expect practitioners and students to remember accurately normal biochemistry ranges because these will vary from laboratory to laboratory according to the methods and reagents used. Most laboratory reports will state the ranges considered normal for their methods and the species concerned. We try to highlight values that we consider abnormal, even to the extent of noting deviations from previous samples though still within the 'normal' range, and where possible suggest possible causes. An in-house laboratory should use standard procedures and controls and develop its own check sheets.

Tim.

Re: Rote Learning.

Rob Davis — Mon, 09 May 2011 15:32:00 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]I had a student with last week and asked him to calculate the doses and draw up the correct volumes of acp/vetergesic, propofol and metacam for a routine castration. He claimed to know all the dosages of by heart, but got the metacam one wrong by a factor of 10. Luckily he had not injected the x 10 dose!. I feel it would be much safer if he used his formulary and checked. [/quote]

Sorry - replied before I saw this.

Overconfidence can be very dangerous. Some years ago a student was observing a colleague assisting with a difficult lambing. The vet decided that a caesarian was necessary and went to collect his kit from the car. Meanwhile, overconfident student told the farmer that he'd have a go as he'd never been beaten by a lambing yet......Outcome was dead ewe with uterine tear, very cross farmer and the only occasion on which I have seen a vet student be fired from seeing practice!

Re: Rote Learning.

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 09 May 2011 15:27:02 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

[/quote]

What does annoy me is when vet students can't even be bothered to learn body temperatures of common domestic animals and other basic data (HR, RR etc). I can't remember the dose rate for everything but 95% of what I use I could give you a dose rate and likely a milk withhold for cattle. A lot comes from familiarity of use and I have a good memory for numbers.

I would expect a student to know how to calculate a fluid rate without looking anything up, just wouldn't expect them to quote number of drops for a 20kg shocked dog off the top of their head! I'd expect them to know glucose, PCV and TS.

Re: Rote Learning.

Rob Davis — Mon, 09 May 2011 15:24:58 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]Should those of us in practice and veterinary students be expected to learn off by heart things such as drug doses, fluid therapy rates, normal biochemistry ranges etc. Or is it acceptable to know where to look things up as and when you need them ? [/quote]

Looking things up is fine (and I would rather check and be right than wing it and be wrong), although I would expect most vets to quickly become familiar with dosages for commonly used drugs (looking EVERYTHING up EVERY time you gave anything would get tedious).

It sounds as though there is an angle to this..... has somebody been giving you a hard time?

Re: Rote Learning.

Clive Ansell — Mon, 09 May 2011 15:21:45 GMT

Me too - I look things up. I can remember the ones I use all the time; acp, domitor, metacam, vetergesic, amoxycillin.

I had a student with last week and asked him to calculate the doses and draw up the correct volumes of acp/vetergesic, propofol and metacam for a routine castration. He claimed to know all the dosages of by heart, but got the metacam one wrong by a factor of 10. Luckily he had not injected the x 10 dose!. I feel it would be much safer if he used his formulary and checked.

Re: Rote Learning.

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 09 May 2011 15:11:10 GMT

I'mnot too proud to keep both the NOAH product shhet book, and the BSAVA book in my consulting room-and consult them in front of owners

Wynne

Re: Rote Learning.

bob lehner — Mon, 09 May 2011 15:08:32 GMT

Definitely acceptable to know where to look.

I reckon it's impossible for the average mortal v.s. to retain the amount of information we are all exposed to these days. If you think of all that you have learned at vet school (much of which, to be fair, is instantly forgotten), plus what one has learnt by experience, plus all new lnowledge which is constantly and unremittingly churned out and fed to us, I think one must accept one's limitations. Certainly I feel much safer looking something up if I'm not sure, rather than relying on my ageing grey matter. That's what t'internet was invented for surely ?

Re: Rote Learning.

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 09 May 2011 15:02:45 GMT

You've got a better brain than I have if you can remember the lot !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wynne