RCVS Renewal of Registration

Re: RCVS Renewal of Registration

Mark Hedberg — Sat, 25 Jun 2011 20:39:25 GMT

I can just see the reactions here if the RCVS asks us to renew our registrations via iTunes... :p

Re: RCVS Renewal of Registration

Tanya Fielding — Sat, 25 Jun 2011 15:25:49 GMT

when my children ask me to by a 59p app on the iPod I get an immediate notification by email so surely with all the money for new IT system this should have been factored in.

Re: RCVS Renewal of Registration

plantagenet — Thu, 23 Jun 2011 09:09:54 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]They could even add our degrees and qualifications at the same time!![/quote]

And mine were wrong AGAIN this year - a minor error perhaps, but important to me.

Re: RCVS Renewal of Registration

Bob Russell — Wed, 22 Jun 2011 10:24:54 GMT

We got our invoice this morning. The letter mentions paying by direct debit but no mandate is enclosed. We cannot pay it by BACS, set up a standing order and have to pay by cheque it seems.

It also took four sheets of A4 for one invoice!

Re: RCVS Renewal of Registration

J G Wray — Tue, 31 May 2011 14:29:57 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Not quite sure why it is that the RCVS is always guilty till proven innocent.[/quote]

This is the third financial "event" of recent times.

1. The £70,000 front desk

2. The basement refurb costs

3. The IT overspend

How many more does there need to be? What level of spending of our money is required before RCVS humbly admit an abrogation of their fiduciary duty or say anything, come to that?

Is there an innocent explanation for all this, because I'd like to hear it, particularly from the longest serving Councillors, some of whom have been there for more than a decade?

JGW

Re: RCVS Renewal of Registration

Bob Russell — Tue, 31 May 2011 11:47:45 GMT

If you ask your builder to change your windows I am sure the first question to ask is how much is it going to cost and if you were a professional body spending other peoples money I would consider an estimate in writing to be common sense.

If an invoice comes in for more than agreed I would not consider paying without explanation. Do these same people (RCVS employees I suspect) moonlight for the Ministry of Defence?

Has the IT firm worked on the software for the Chinook helicopters that cannot fly I wonder?

The RCVS (and therefore us) employs staff to look after the day to day running of projects (lets call them civil servants) while the Council make the decisions (lets call them government). If there is a problem with an overspend it seems the project is being mismanaged. It is then explained away by senior RCVS staff (lets call him/her Sir Humphrey)

Time for the head man (lets call him the Prime Minister) to talk to the people and explain what is going on!

Re: RCVS Renewal of Registration

Anthony Todd — Tue, 31 May 2011 11:42:16 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Not quite sure why it is that the RCVS is always guilty till proven innocent.[/quote]

Well they are £225k over budget and it doesn't work, so there is some guilt, surely?

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I just wish the point was posed as a question (an important one at that), rather than a verdict![/quote]

Ok, point taken, who would you suggest we ask and what, do you think, is the likelihood of getting a definitive answer?

I suspect we will just get a Blattering.

Re: RCVS Renewal of Registration

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 31 May 2011 11:20:54 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"] Ok, flippant for example, but I'll wager that the developers or the RCVS suggested things to include which were in addition to the spec. with or without knowing what the cost would be, and without critically examining whether they were cost effective or cost necessary.[/quote]

Not quite sure why it is that the RCVS is always guilty till proven innocent.

You may or may not be right about the level of scrutiny any subsequent work was subjected to. In my experience, it is usually the case that work carried out after a contract is awarded is subjected to less scrutiny than the original proposal.

I just wish the point was posed as a question (an important one at that), rather than a verdict!

Re: RCVS Renewal of Registration

Anthony Todd — Tue, 31 May 2011 10:53:22 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]the sort of flippant thinking you accuse the RCVS of:[/quote]

Ok, flippant for example, but I'll wager that the developers or the RCVS suggested things to include which were in addition to the spec. with or without knowing what the cost would be, and without critically examining whether they were cost effective or cost necessary.

How many of us use all the bells and whistles in our practice software? Do we always record the colour of the pet?? I'd love to see the final college program and see just how many things are not really really necessary.

My limited experience is that transferring data from one program to another is very expensive and very prone to disaster, like all the names linked to the next address, one out of sync........ Is that why it's overbudget and doesn't work?

Don't worry, there'll be rotten windows and they'll only be found when and/or if they get the program to work and sure, that'll be an extra, expensive, upgrade.....

IMHO much better to keep the old [??DOS??] program in the old [worthless, no doubt] computer system and transfer the data manually, updating and correcting when they get the confirmation names and addresses back, but that's too dinosaurial.

They could even add our degrees and qualifications at the same time!!

Re: RCVS Renewal of Registration

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 31 May 2011 10:27:32 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Arlo, you'll know,[/quote]

Hmm. In my experience, the main reason for an overspend with IT projects is either when integrating a new system with an old one, or fixing a problem. Systems are invariably so complex, and there are so many unknowns at the time of estimating that it is often just about impossible to give an accurate quote.

For a completely new system that is not integrated with an old system, I don't think there can be any excuse for an IT company to charge more than quoted, provided the brief remains unchanged.

Having said that, it's perfectly fair for a brief to change during a project, and not necessarily as a result of the sort of flippant thinking you accuse the RCVS of:

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Or is it because the programmers say "you should have the facility to connect with every members relatives, bank, and their grandmother's cat" and the RCVS says "that's a great idea, just do it, we'll pay"?[/quote]

I'm in the process of overspending on a new kitchen here at Guthrie Towers, and I'm having to explain to Mrs G. why this means her frock allowance will be slashed this year. Problem is that until the carpenter arrived half way through the project, we didn't realise the windows were as badly rotted as they are. I could have told the builders to use a bit of filler, and saved a skirt or two. But it would have been a false economy, as the windows would still need replacing sooner or later.

Likewise, it is usually much more cost-effective to repair IT problems or add additional features whilst the builders are in, than leave them till some point in the future, by which time the programmers will have forgotten how the whole thing works anyway.

Re: RCVS Renewal of Registration

Anthony Todd — Tue, 31 May 2011 08:27:15 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Why can't people make it simple?[/quote]

One thing I've never understood is how a spec. for software to do a specified job or function is able to "blow out".

Is it because someone says" we also want it to be able to.............." after the original is ready to go live?

If so why wasn't it in the original spec?

Or is it because the programmers say "you should have the facility to connect with every members relatives, bank, and their grandmother's cat" and the RCVS says "that's a great idea, just do it, we'll pay"?

Or is it because there isn't a spec. or instruction except "Do us a program for membership finances, please, let's see it, and we'll add bits that we've thought of later"?

Or is it because a bespoke software developer comes to the RCVS and says "what you need is..... and we can do it for £xxxx....". They do it, but without a field for graduation date, and then say [sucking through teeth] "Oh, can do, but it will cost £xxxx, we estimate, but it could be more"?

Arlo, you'll know, or perhaps a Council member who was privy to the process.

Re: RCVS Renewal of Registration

Mark Hedberg — Mon, 30 May 2011 09:32:38 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"] Microsoft Access would work just fine[/quote]

Didn't like to suggest that but it seems to me that it's very like the client file in any practice software. They could even get us to enter the data in the correct fields which would save no end of time and work and staff [!!]

Have a look at your client screen on Tuesday and pretend to fill in all your details that the RCVS could possibly want, bet you've got fields left over.

You could even send yourself a "vaccination" reminder to boost your continuing membership ;-) And print the bleeding envelopes.......

Why can't people make it simple?

[/quote]

Because when it's simple you can't fleece the RCVS for £250,000 overspend! :)

Re: RCVS Renewal of Registration

Anthony Todd — Sun, 29 May 2011 20:46:05 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"] Microsoft Access would work just fine[/quote]

Have a look at your client screen on Tuesday and pretend to fill in all your details that the RCVS could possibly want, bet you've got fields left over.

You could even send yourself a "vaccination" reminder to boost your continuing membership ;-) And print the bleeding envelopes.......

Why can't people make it simple?

Re: RCVS Renewal of Registration

Mark Hedberg — Sun, 29 May 2011 19:27:11 GMT

Frankly, an old copy of Microsoft Access would work just fine. We're not the first people to need a register of names. Not a single cutout in the project stages? Seems a bit hard to believe.

Re: RCVS Renewal of Registration

Anthony Todd — Sun, 29 May 2011 17:14:22 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]job has still not been completed[/quote]

Incredible beyond belief! but such a common scenario with software developers and people who are not paying the bill themselves. The NHS is another example of millions or is it billions being wasted to no end.

I wonder whether it would not be possible to do most, if not all, of the essential data collection and processing using simple existing off the shelf software at a fraction of the cost and with total reliability.

Re: RCVS Renewal of Registration

Kate Richardson — Sun, 29 May 2011 14:37:39 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

I'm not making this up. It's our money they're playing around with.

JGW

[/quote]

So in summary- the RCVS had some estimates for some work that needed doing, they chose a company to do this work based on this estimate and presumably other factors such as times frames, experience, value for money etc etc,and the work was started.

It was then found that more work was needed to be done than initially requested or it was requested but costs were seriously underestimated by the aforementioned company chosen to do the work. The work was (or is being) carried out and the RCVS have been invoiced for this work and this invoice is massively higher than the original estimate. It was decided to continue to carry out this work without consulting those the people that pay the invoices. The job has still not been completed and the original company who started the work are unable to complete it as actually they don't have the necessary experience to do the work.

Shall we call Dom on BBCs Fake Britain to come and sort it out or shall we send someone to the DC?

Re: RCVS Renewal of Registration

Mark Hedberg — Sat, 28 May 2011 21:52:52 GMT

I'm stunned. Literally lost for words.

Re: RCVS Renewal of Registration

Rob Reid — Sat, 28 May 2011 08:33:15 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

Oh dear,I knew I shouldn't have started, but WTF [ another TLA, but you'll be au fait [french] with the genre [french,I think]], does that FLA mean.

Oh no, I'm slow; got it now but "myself" is one word, so really it's a TLA after all...... sorry, dear, some more washing I'm afraid.

[/quote]

Agreed - AFAIC it should technically be a TLA that one.

LMFAO !

Re: RCVS Renewal of Registration

J G Wray — Fri, 27 May 2011 23:43:52 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]hey have been installing all sorts of computer systems for years in a piecemeal slow and poorly monitored and implemented IT programme. Details are secret from those who are paying. RCVS are in the thrall of their IT people and so Registration for ordinary members is not going well, precisely at the time they have chosen to overcheck address details, when qualifications details are what determine whether someone is spiv or not..[/quote]

Well here's an extract from the agenda for the next RCVS Council meeting -

"..IT Strategy and Development Report
48. Introducing his report, the Head of Corporate Services referred to his previous assurance to the Committee that the project was on budget, made at the last PRC meeting, and said that that was the case at the time. He explained that invoices had subsequently been received from ASI for work done both before and since then; the Head of Finance confirmed that the overspend was currently in the region of £225,000.
49. He attributed this to additional costs involved in integrating the new website with the iMIS system, to changing requirements and developments not requested in the original estimate and for work on ‘gap’ items, i.e. features required primarily by the Education and VN Departments not available ‘out of the box’. The package is an off-the-shelf one, but a significant amount of customisation has been necessary. The Corporate Services budget for IT development is around £70,000 - £80,000 p.a. and this would effectively reduce the overspend on the original budget since development of the old system ceased about 3 years ago whilst the new one was being introduced.
50. ASI has been requested to provide a detailed breakdown of the costs of this additional development Council Jun 11 AI 07e Page 10 work but it has not provided these as yet. The Head of Corporate Services is currently going through the invoices to identify in more detail what the charges are for. The Head of Finance added that its invoices are not the easiest to work with.
51. The Head of Corporate Services confirmed that the College is no longer paying any project management charges to the company and ASI has provided a member of its staff to liaise on the project at no cost to the College. He anticipated that approximately £20,000 could still be needed to
complete work on the project but he hoped that it would not cost this much.
52. He said that software changeovers are always traumatic, no matter which system and company you choose, and such projects are invariably complicated. There was some support for this view. He said that College staff has put in lot of extra work and effort collectively to keep business running smoothly although costs for additional staff time is virtually unquantifiable. He added he has endeavoured to keep the Committee apprised of developments and costs and referred to the latest update which had been circulated before and tabled at the meeting.
53. The Professional Conduct Department system is currently entirely separate from the iMIS system and there will be a paper in October about updating it. ASI is unable to meet the specification so will definitely not be the provider.
54. The basic annual licence fee for iMIS is around £39,000-£40,000 and the system is now at a stage where it is largely configurable in-house by IT staff. ASI was not the cheapest company but neither was it the most expensive estimate.
55. In answer to a question, the Head of Corporate Services said that ‘gap’ items had been included in the original budget but it had transpired that the work needed from ASI to cater for these was well above what was estimated. He added that he is trying to establish from the invoices how much of the overspend is down to this.
56. It was also confirmed that, as at 12 May, the total amount spent was £327,000; the VN import routines are now working; 19% of the VAT paid can be reclaimed.
57. Members were concerned that rather than approving budgets in advance PRC is being asked to ‘rubber stamp’ expenditure already paid out. The Chairman said that it had been vital to keep the business going and imperative to get the project to a stage where the 2011 annual retention fee
notices could be sent out to avoid serious repercussions if they were not. He confirmed that Officers can authorise an overspend but no amounts are laid down; this will be looked at in the next item on the agenda. The Registrar, reading from the General Administration Bye-Laws and the
terms of reference for Officers, reminded the Committee that they are empowered ‘to deal with Council Jun 11 AI 07e Page 11 urgent business and approve expenditure from the contingency fund, arising between Council and Committee meetings, reporting to the Council or the relevant Committee and seeking ratification, as necessary’. A question was raised about the extent to which the PRC terms of reference include the
power to approve monies after they have been spent.
58. The President said there had already been robust discussions with ASI but in the meantime there was a need to ‘keep the ship afloat’.
59. Replying to a question, the Head of Corporate Services said that Outlook 2007 has been implemented throughout the College but that he was looking at implementing the entire Office 2007 suite in due course.
60. In response to a question, the Head of Finance said that it would not have been possible to send out fee notices using data from DMS as that system has not been updated since early December and there will have been many, many changes to addresses, categories, DD details, some deaths, etc. since then. The President reminded members that the new system was supposed to be up and running in February 2010. Had implementation been delayed beyond December 2010, a whole year in terms of using it to process members’ fee payments would have been lost.
Management of Major Projects
61. Introducing the paper the Chairman suggested that unrealistically low contingency funding had been put in place when budgeting for both the Lower Ground Floor and iMIS projects. A suggestion was made that a 30% contingency fund might be appropriate at the start of some projects but that this should decrease as various stages are completed. One member commented that a larger contingency fund must not be allowed to disguise poor management of a project....."

I'm not making this up. It's our money they're playing around with.

JGW

Re: RCVS Renewal of Registration

Anthony Todd — Thu, 26 May 2011 16:38:08 GMT

[quote user="Rob Reid"]PMSL ! [/quote]

Oh dear,I knew I shouldn't have started, but WTF [ another TLA, but you'll be au fait [french] with the genre [french,I think]], does that FLA mean.

Oh no, I'm slow; got it now but "myself" is one word, so really it's a TLA after all...... sorry, dear, some more washing I'm afraid.

Re: RCVS Renewal of Registration

Rob Reid — Thu, 26 May 2011 16:28:08 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

FFS is a TLA [= three letter abbreviation] for a common expression of extreme frustration at the inability to perceive or take the obvious and easiest action or explanation.

It is a paraphrase of "For Heavens Sake" where "Heaven" is replaced, by the working classes, with the common vernacular word for sexual intercourse between humans. At times it is the most appropriate, telling and apt response to blood-curdling stupidity or intransigence.

Does the enquirer live in an ivory tower or, most likely, sit on the RCVS Council, or perhaps work in their administration department?

[/quote]

PMSL !

Re: RCVS Renewal of Registration

Bob Russell — Thu, 26 May 2011 16:24:55 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

Anyone any idea how much was spent on the rebranding?

[/quote]

All the money that should have been spent getting a good IT system and training to use it!

Re: RCVS Renewal of Registration

David Mills — Thu, 26 May 2011 14:47:20 GMT

Anyone any idea how much was spent on the rebranding?

Re: RCVS Renewal of Registration

Anthony Todd — Thu, 26 May 2011 08:32:51 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]FFS[/quote]

Eh? What does this mean?

[/quote]

FFS is a TLA [= three letter abbreviation] for a common expression of extreme frustration at the inability to perceive or take the obvious and easiest action or explanation.

Does the enquirer live in an ivory tower or, most likely, sit on the RCVS Council, or perhaps work in their administration department?

Re: RCVS Renewal of Registration

J G Wray — Thu, 26 May 2011 07:36:26 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]FFS[/quote]

Eh? What does this mean?

There appears to be four things going on

1. RCVS have had false registrants and may have a number more which the police are investigating. This is manifestly the RCVS with their trousers down and it is part of the VSA 1966 that they maintain the Register. RCVS are there fore super sensitive and have lashed out at their staff and us.

2. They have been installing all sorts of computer systems for years in a piecemeal slow and poorly monitored and implemented IT programme. Details are secret from those who are paying. RCVS are in the thrall of their IT people and so Registration for ordinary members is not going well, precisely at the time they have chosen to overcheck address details, when qualifications details are what determine whether someone is spiv or not..

3. There is little interdepartmental coordination and integration between Finance IT and Registration, largely because of poor management structures and training. The IT stuff is there as well, but it's not the main problem between departments.

4. Members are becoming a bit more belligerant. Well, they're not actually, it's just that "social media" are giving a place for them to vent their spleen about RCVS' shortcomings. RCVS are interested only in the silent majority (how do they know what they think?) not the vocal minority and believe with the utmost sincerity and inaccuracy that what they are doing is correct. The next President is all of this personified in one with outstandingly poor judgement. Don't expect any explanations or changes from her - weird.

JGW