Curious biographies similar but somehow different

Re: Curious biographies similar but somehow different

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 22 Mar 2011 20:37:33 GMT

I think the point has been made, so I am now going to lock this thread.

Re: Curious biographies similar but somehow different

Simon Baker — Tue, 22 Mar 2011 20:27:17 GMT

Those homeopathic qualifications can become awfully shy.

Does anyone remember the letter to Vet Times written by a group in 2004 opposing the usual policies of pet vaccination in the UK? Here's a linky for anyone who has forgotten it;

http://www.truthaboutvaccines.org/docs/11.pdf

Many homs among their number. None used their Hom qualifications for that letter.

Yet, peruse the long list of other letters written by homs in Vet Times around that period;

http://vetpath.co.uk/voodoo/vtindex.html

and you find the letters VetFFHom strewn about the place like confetti.

Again, I offer readers the opportunity to speculate and conclude what they might from these observations.

Re: Curious biographies similar but somehow different

Niall Taylor — Tue, 22 Mar 2011 17:54:47 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]There is an RCVS Candidate called Mr Mark Elliott BVSc MRCVS with the following biog... And a RCVS Councillor called Mr Mark Elliott BVSc VetMFHom MRCVS with the following biography...

Are they related? One's a homeopath and the other makes no such claim.[/quote]

I've already come across 2 MsRCVS who have voted for Mr Elliott on the back of his published CV, neither of whom would have done so if they had realised he was a homeopath and a practitioner of psionic medicine. Seems that lack of full disclosure pays.

Niall

Re: Curious biographies similar but somehow different

Mark Elliott — Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:36:48 GMT

Simon

Whilst I understand your frustrations you are not going to get the overall data you ask for at this time. I am not at liberty to divulge this data.

I will happily however, ask the research committee to reconsider your request.

Simon - Re Hyperthyroid Cats - I can tell you that, as I work by referral for Homeopathic treatment, cases will either arrive with a diagnosis or be referred back for such investigation if required. Yes, I record heart rates as well as other reference data. You may be surprised, but good homeopathic practice is an investigative process that includes appropriate conventional diagnostic protocols.

However much you wish to twist things around, you are in my opinion totally wrong in your assumptions about Homeopathic Vets. Perhaps you should come down and spend some time sitting in with me on cases to see how I work? I would be very happy for you to do so.

Whilst it seems some of those on this forum seem intent on dissecting the minutia of my practice and life, I would remind such that this forum is supposed to be about the RCVS Elections where we should be examining the important issues relating to such. I have already stated I am not going to respond to ill-informed and bigoted attacks on Homeopathy. I am also not going to respond further to dissection of my life and practice. I regard myself as practicing to a very high standard for the benefit and welfare of my patients, and am proud to have gained the respect and support of many well-regarded colleagues, both conventional and homeopathic in philosophy, for both my conventional and homeopathic practice and knowledge, as well as my work for the profession.

We'll no doubt catch up on the 25th, in that debate, and I look forward in anticipation to you accepting my offer of "seeing practice"

Mark

Re: Curious biographies similar but somehow different

Simon Baker — Mon, 21 Mar 2011 21:27:58 GMT

I'll let other readers consider whether your responses actually represent answers to my questions about nosodes.

Are you really saying that you are not going to tell your professional colleagues the T4 results from these cats you have treated? I perfectly accept that the paper was written so as to omit this type of objective and reliable information, but I am asking you directly, vet to vet, what were the T4 results of the cats that you reported in that study? Doubtless you have treated other hyperthyroid cats that need not be shrouded in the veil of mystery that you strangely wish to draw over the participants in that study. So, tell us the T4 results from some other cases.

To repeat myself, I have previously collated equivalent data for animals we have treated as part of our normal clinical routine. This is not hard to do, so please do it for some of your cases. Again, I'll leave others to draw their own conclusions should you decline to provide such simple objective information. All you need to do is phone your lab. They will happily send you the numbers from all your cases in a specified time period. I asked Idexx two weeks ago and they confirmed how easy it is to do for our cases. Even my busy schedule allowed for that 30-second phone call and I'd not recently published a paper including such cases where I might reasonably be expected to have the data at my fingertips.

Or, do I need to take one step back from this? I have just realised that you have not actually confirmed that you, personally, ever record T4 data before and after treatment in your hyperthyroid patients. Mark, in the hyperthyroid cats you treat, do you routinely test T4? Do you record their heart-rates?

In commentary, I will add that time and again we see homeopaths setting out to answer obscure and irrelevant questions by the most circuitous methods and to promote the results in the national media, but when asked to provide simple, clear information suddenly a degree of coyness overcomes them.

Re: Curious biographies similar but somehow different

Mark Elliott — Mon, 21 Mar 2011 20:46:45 GMT

Dear Simon

Re 1. I would refer you to my comments on clinical freedoms which answers such perfectly well. As a sitting member of PIC and Council I do not feel I am able as an individual to answer you more directly than that.

Re 2. I would refer you to VMD as the competent authority on that point.

Re the particular study and your questions on the same. I am aware of your communications with Robert Mathie and you may take his reply as having also come from myself as part of the research group, and co-author of a number of the peer reviewed papers, including one of those published in the Vet Record. The study design, methodology, and the limitations of the conclusions are clearly detailed in those papers. Our studies were intended to guide further research as detailed in the abstracts and further detailed information accessible from the data sets that you request is privileged at this time whilst further work continues, as I am sure most researchers would understand.

I have nothing further to add to this other than that we look forward to working with you at some stage in the future as we have indicated to yourself and to other interested colleagues, assuming you are willing to collaborate?

Now I am really signing off until the 25th when I have time set aside for the debate proper

Mark

Re: Curious biographies similar but somehow different

Simon Baker — Mon, 21 Mar 2011 19:29:52 GMT

Sorry, Mark, that may be a reply to my post, but you have not answered the specific questions. The BAHVS position statement does not directly address the issues I have just raised.

I will repeat,

1. Mark, what should be done about vets who support and even promote the use of nosodes as alternatives to vaccination?

2. Should anything be done if a vet sells nosodes directly to the public?

At the moment, I am left to read between the lines, but if I am interpreting your comments correctly, the answer would seem to be the same to both questions, and it is that nothing should be done about vets who support and promote nosodes as alternatives to vaccination and nothing should be done about vets who sell nosodes directly to the public.

We are all busy people, and I might suggest that direct answers would have been shorter and more efficient.

Since I have your attention, I shall add a couple more questions that I have been considering with recently.

Did you contribute any cases of hyperthyroidism to the recent study published in the Homeopathy?

"Homeopathic prescribing for chronic conditions in feline and canine veterinary practice." Homeopathy. 2010 Oct;99(4):243-8.

I engaged in e-mail exchanges with Robert Mathie over several months where I explicitly asked him whether any of the cats included in that study had before and after T4 results. On 8th Dec 2010 I asked;

1. How many hyperthyroid cats were treated?

2. What were their pre-treatment T4 concentrations?

3. What were their post-treatment T4 concentrations?

After a mere 3 months he confirmed that results did exist, "T4 levels were indeed recorded in most cases" [e-mail 8th March 2011], but after conferring with the contributing vets he was not going to share them with me. You are one of the authors of that paper, so perhaps you can answer on your own behalf. What were your results, Mark?

I have asked this question repeatedly of vet homeopaths in various forums. I have yet to receive a substantive answer. Some years ago I searched my own records for results to demonstrate to my own satisfaction just how easy these data are to collate. Over to you.

Re: Curious biographies similar but somehow different

Mark Elliott — Mon, 21 Mar 2011 18:42:22 GMT

Simon, I am very happy to answer your question.

I would refer you to http://www.bahvs.com/nosodes.htm , which includes comment on the VMD issue at the end. This is also my position.

I would also add that I personally do not support the provision of such products to anyone other than one's own patients, nor do I support the current availability to the public of such from pharmacies. I personally do not recommend their routine use for prophylaxis, and am always happy to state that I do give my own dogs (6) their initial puppy shots, and first booster. Thereafter I base my own dogs needs and advice for my patients on the WSAVA guidance as published in JSAP 2010.

As regards the RCVS and the VMD on this issue - If it has been discussed in committee, it is not one I am part of, nor have I seen record of such a discussion in minutes. If I was asked to provide informed opinion within the college on this matter I would be happy to do so.

You will be aware of the rules of governance which would require declarations of interest in any such RCVS debate, and as Mr Wray has already pointed out, mine are available on the RCVS website.

Other than that, I would repeat my statements made already in this thread regarding debate on Homeopathy and the importance of Clinical Freedoms, which position will not change.

Lastly I would like to note that I am extremely busy this week and away the weekend. I will therefore be unable to contribute substantively to further discussion in advance of the start of the election postings proper that begin the 25th, and would be grateful if any further issues are raised through that process via the list moderator

Re: Curious biographies similar but somehow different

Simon Baker — Mon, 21 Mar 2011 13:47:42 GMT

Don't know. It's germane and timely in this thread. I'd like to hear what Mark has to say.

Re: Curious biographies similar but somehow different

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 21 Mar 2011 13:37:08 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"] That leaves us with the question of Mr Elliott being a practising homeopath. Again, everyone can and will make their own decision about whether the homeophobes on this site have a point, or whether it is actually irrelevant to the role of a councillor.[/quote]

On reflection that post suggests that someone who is critical of homeopathy is as reprehensible as someone who criticises someone for their sexual preferences, which I think society would broadly agree is not the case!

Re: Curious biographies similar but somehow different

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 21 Mar 2011 12:59:16 GMT

Simon - I think it would be more appropriate if this question were submitted to the main RCVS Elections forums, which open in a few days. Would that be OK?

Re: Curious biographies similar but somehow different

Simon Baker — Mon, 21 Mar 2011 12:40:42 GMT

"That leaves us with the question of Mr Elliott being a practising homeopath. Again, everyone can and will make their own decision about whether the homeophobes on this site have a point, or whether it is actually irrelevant to the role of a councillor."

For my first post here, I'd like to ask Mark to deal with an issue that directly intersects the world of the homeopath and that of an RCVS councillor.

Mark, what should be done about vets who support and even promote the use of nosodes as alternatives to vaccination? Should anything be done if a vet sells nosodes directly to the public?

The VMD appears to regard this as a matter requiring intervention.

http://ww2.defra.gov.uk/news/2010/12/17/pet-remedies/

Does RCVS Council and you as a member support the VMD in their action?

Re: Curious biographies similar but somehow different

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 21 Mar 2011 08:25:24 GMT

JGW, why do you feel the need to load your questions with such copious amounts of innuendo? Why not just call a spade a spade?

For example: "Mr Elliott, I see on your declaration of interests that you are director of a company called Payless 4 Vets. Was this company involved with selling cut-price veterinary services, and if it was, how do you think you can represent a profession that is, it is widely accepted, underpaid for the service it provides?"

I know that's a slightly less entertaining way of asking the question than your version. But it does at least offer Mr Elliott the professional courtesy of being able to respond to the question before being found guilty.

That's what I don't like: your barristerial style. This is not a courtroom.

As it is, Mr Elliott has explained the reason for the difference between the biog on the RCVS website and his election biog was because he has only a limited number of words in which to explain why you should vote for him, so he used those words he thought were most relevant.

He has also explained that Payless 4 Vets was a company offering low cost greyhound track veterinary services.

Everyone can make of these answers what they will. They seem perfectly reasonable to me. Of course, they won't to everyone.

That leaves us with the question of Mr Elliott being a practising homeopath. Again, everyone can and will make their own decision about whether the homeophobes on this site have a point, or whether it is actually irrelevant to the role of a councillor.

As I say, these all seem like very good questions.

In the future, though, could I please ask you NOT to answer your own questions before the candidate has had a chance

Re: Curious biographies similar but somehow different

J G Wray — Mon, 21 Mar 2011 07:24:55 GMT

[quote user="Mark Elliott"]The fact I have not changed it since as the registered company name, and trade as South Downs Veterinary Consultancy along with my co-Director is immaterial to my current and future practice and indeed, as most I am sure would say, this debate.[/quote]

Dear Mr Elliott,

You are quite right; appearances can be deceptive. What might look nefarious or unhelpful can, in fact, be the opposite from another's point of view and only a jaundiced and irrational assessment might lead to the former conclusion. Fortunately, this is only an election for representatives of the profession and not anything more serious.

JGW

Re: Curious biographies similar but somehow different

Mark Elliott — Sun, 20 Mar 2011 22:21:56 GMT

Mr Wray

For your clarification

Payless 4 Vets Ltd was established as an identity when I was doing Greyhound work as a Track Vet. Such work was done inexpensively as part of that contract and the name was perhaps a little "tongue in cheek" at the time. The fact I have not changed it since as the registered company name, and trade as South Downs Veterinary Consultancy along with my co-Director is immaterial to my current and future practice and indeed, as most I am sure would say, this debate.

Mark Elliott

Re: Curious biographies similar but somehow different

J G Wray — Sun, 20 Mar 2011 18:23:16 GMT

[quote user="Mark Elliott"]I do not intend responding to ill-informed and bigoted attacks on Homeopathy in this campaign for votes. [/quote]

I forgot to add this link for those of you who are enthusiasitic or otherwise about vets who sell services and goods "cheaply":

http://www.rcvs.org.uk/about-us/rcvs-council/council-members/mark-elliott/

Although we get edited biogs and agendas from candidates, you can also check out their declaration of interests.

JGW

Re: Curious biographies similar but somehow different

Niall Taylor — Sat, 19 Mar 2011 16:47:00 GMT

[quote user="Mark Elliott"]the usual protagonists are commenting in a predictable manner[/quote]

Mark, could you please clarify what you mean by this phrase?

Niall

Re: Curious biographies similar but somehow different

J G Wray — Fri, 18 Mar 2011 22:13:13 GMT

[quote user="Mark Elliott"]My work at RCVS has very little relevance to my interest in Homeopathy, and has a much wider formal remit. [/quote]

I would like to sincerely endorse the concept made here by none other than Mr Elliot of the RCVS and PIC. I too believe it is possible to have a vested interest and yet act objectively. I also believe that to get bogged down, obsessed with that interest, can interfere with process and that is reprehensible.

[quote user="Mark Elliott"]I have to say I am delighted the new RCVS website does show my qualification........, even if not officially recognised, which, along with the Council members biog, only supports my contention that nothing is hidden.[/quote]

I also endorse the idea that, even if not officially recognised, a qualification along with a commentary can support a contention that nothing is hidden.

I also wish that what is sauce for the goose....

JGW

Re: Curious biographies similar but somehow different

Tim Mainland — Fri, 18 Mar 2011 19:55:39 GMT

Sounds like a fine politician to me! I've not voted yet...

Re: Curious biographies similar but somehow different

Mark Elliott — Fri, 18 Mar 2011 17:16:45 GMT

Dear Mr Wray

Neither Biog is incorrect in content. When writing the content for this election you will see I have utilised the (very) restricted word allocation for election purposes in putting myself forward for the work I have done, and hope very much to continue. My work at RCVS has very little relevance to my interest in Homeopathy, and has a much wider formal remit.

The Biog content on the RCVS website is an older one, and I am grateful to you for pointing it out.

I have to say I am delighted the new RCVS website does show my qualification in Veterinary Homeopathy on it as you have detailed, even if not officially recognised, which, along with the Council members biog, only supports my contention that nothing is hidden.

Mark

Re: Curious biographies similar but somehow different

Rob Loxley — Fri, 18 Mar 2011 16:41:01 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

Why two different biogs? Please do not digress into a justification of homeopathy.

[/quote]

Well given this discussion an admission of homeopathic thoughts seems to be an instant vote loser for many, and maybe the candidate feels there is more beyond the homeopathy question to be elected upon?

Re: Curious biographies similar but somehow different

J G Wray — Fri, 18 Mar 2011 16:16:40 GMT

Dear Mr Elliott,

On the very specific and non Homeopathic point

Why are there two different biogs for you on the RCVS Website? One for you as Councillor has qualifications not recognised by RCVS (!?!) and text A and the one for election has truncated qualifications and text B. They have similar numbers of words.

If someone were to vote for the election biog and subsequently discover the Councillor biog, then could they think you a tad disingenuous?

There is no notification in print on page 5 of RCVS News of your websites, so its difficult to know about you beyond what is there.

Don't take this personally, some people have written far worse, even potentially libellous stuff about me and I've waved it off.

Why two different biogs? Please do not digress into a justification of homeopathy.

JGW

Re: Curious biographies similar but somehow different

Mark Elliott — Fri, 18 Mar 2011 15:48:48 GMT

An intriguing post, and one which merits appropriate reply. Albeit the usual protagonists are commenting in a predictable manner

Qualifications listed on my manifesto are those recognised by the RCVS. The same was so in the previous elections as far as I recall.

If you wish to view my alternative website then you may at www.homeopathicvet.co.uk or www.markelliott.co.uk . Such is linked to the website for my conventional work www.southdownsvets.co.uk as well so nothing is hidden. Im certainly not ashamed of what I do, have never hidden such, and am proud of what is achieved for many of my patients that seek me out for help after failure of a conventional approach.

Why did I not mention Homeopathy specifically? - I do mention CAM in my personal bio on Vetsurgeon.org . But basically we are presenting ourselves within a very limited word format as defined by RCVS, and frankly I do not see Homeopathy as relevant to the debate over ability or not to sit on Council. There are many more important issues for the profession and the RCVS to deal with.

Whilst Homeopathy has a place in EU and UK Law, and is a legal practice confined to Vets, then a debate on its merits also has no relevance to the RCVS Council elections - in my opinion.

What is important is that practitioners get elected and so such are represented

I do not intend responding to ill-informed and bigoted attacks on Homeopathy in this campaign for votes. Homeopathy has a far greater evidence base that its detractors would have us believe, but the closed minded individuals that cannot see the bigger picture will never change their minds so I shall not waste time arguing with them as their votes are already lost.

But I will always defend the right to clinical freedom, to practice so long as we can justify what we do. And I will defend such rights to the death, including the right to not practice something one cannot personally accept as valid. To restrict Vets from the practice of therapeutic modalities that are defined and accepted in law, and which the public demand, is at odds with our existance as a profession seeking to defend animal welfare, and plays into the hands of those who would pick up that work if we do not.

Mark

Re: Curious biographies similar but somehow different

Mark Holmes — Fri, 18 Mar 2011 15:29:58 GMT

I have to echo the previous comments. Omitting VetMFHom from the "qualifications", regardless of your views on homeopathy is deceitful. It is information which would be relevent to voters and its omission is undemocratic. More importantly however, where is the distinction between signing something to be as it is not. (a serious PIC offence for which they have dispensed some very punative sentances) and advertising yourself to be something that you are not. I find the distinction very difficult to make and am very concerned about his inclusion on the PIC itself.

Re: Curious biographies similar but somehow different

Niall Taylor — Fri, 18 Mar 2011 15:01:41 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]What I meant was that since he's been on council for two terms, is there any evidence that he has influenced RCVS policy in a pro-homeopathy direction?[/quote]

Well there is this - http://www.rationalvetmed.org/. I'm not sure how long a term is but in 2006 the RCVS suddenly got all coy about homeopathy when challenged:

The RCVS pointed out that in a submission to the house of Lords inquiry in 1999 they had stated "Veterinary surgeons practise science-based medicine" but then went on to say that the RCVS had not "taken a view on the efficacy or otherwise of homoeopathy" and that it did not want to limit the "clinical discretion of veterinary surgeons".

I would be interested to know what involvement individual council members had in formulating this statement (the full letter is on the rational vet med web site) but I don't know if there is a way of doing that - I'll ask Mr Elliott I think.

Cheers,

Niall