In future, what procedures should RVN's be allowed to carry out?

Re: In future, what procedures should RVN's be allowed to carry out?

Alet Engelbrecht — Sat, 30 Jun 2012 16:32:12 GMT

[quote user="Rajat"]I'm so glad I am too young to have practised in those dark days, where hacksaws were the way to split roots...[/quote]

Too young?! I locumed at a practice barely 5 years ago that did not have a dental unit with a drill or a polisher. I asked them politely not to book me any dentals as I did not believe that the worn out toothbrush was enough to 'polish' after a scale...

They did have digital radiography (not dental) though! Different priorities, I guess.

Re: In future, what procedures should RVN's be allowed to carry out?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 30 Jun 2012 09:39:21 GMT

Rajat You're forgiven

Wynne

Re: In future, what procedures should RVN's be allowed to carry out?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 30 Jun 2012 00:05:49 GMT

[quote user="Lorna McHardy"]

[quote user="Rajat"]

on the topic of cool dentistry, my sister (human dentist) was raving about this device - Evelyn eat your heart out!

http://www.mectron.com/PIEZOSURGERY-R-touch-PROFESSI.1071.0.html

[/quote]

I'm now waiting for him to say "I've got one"

[/quote]

I'm saving up..........................

Re: In future, what procedures should RVN's be allowed to carry out?

Lorna McHardy — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 20:42:36 GMT

[quote user="Rajat"]

on the topic of cool dentistry, my sister (human dentist) was raving about this device - Evelyn eat your heart out!

http://www.mectron.com/PIEZOSURGERY-R-touch-PROFESSI.1071.0.html

[/quote]

I'm now waiting for him to say "I've got one"

Re: In future, what procedures should RVN's be allowed to carry out?

Rajat — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 20:34:17 GMT

Hannah - not meant as a 'you've been practising this long' type comment, 50 years just seemed long enough for my futuristic device to sound plausible!

[quote user="plantagenet"]

[quote user="Rajat"]some kind of laser light sabre [/quote]

You've been watching too much star wars!

[/quote]

I know! now that House MD season has finished I am confined to old favourites..

on the topic of cool dentistry, my sister (human dentist) was raving about this device - Evelyn eat your heart out!

http://www.mectron.com/PIEZOSURGERY-R-touch-PROFESSI.1071.0.html

Re: In future, what procedures should RVN's be allowed to carry out?

plantagenet — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 18:20:15 GMT

[quote user="Rajat"]some kind of laser light sabre [/quote]

You've been watching too much star wars!

Re: In future, what procedures should RVN's be allowed to carry out?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 12:04:38 GMT

Make that 30 years-I'm not that old

Wynne

Re: In future, what procedures should RVN's be allowed to carry out?

Rajat — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 11:58:03 GMT

I'm so glad I am too young to have practised in those dark days, where hacksaws were the way to split roots... but times move on, vets 50 years from now will be laughing at us with our high powered drills, instead they will be using some kind of laser light sabre which anaesthetises nerve fibres and prevents pain and cuts teeth and makes ignigval flaps all at once..perfectly..or something like that!

Re: In future, what procedures should RVN's be allowed to carry out?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 11:33:30 GMT

Lorna I'm with you and Evelyn on this one-as you said OW OW OW

Wynne

Re: In future, what procedures should RVN's be allowed to carry out?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 10:57:49 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]I follow that, and you can divide between the two buccal roots, but how do you divide the palatal root from the two buccals?[/quote]

Um, from distant memory I don't think I ever did or needed to. Sometimes I used the blade, wrapped in a swab???

[/quote]

I can't see how you would not need to. Never mind.

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

As an aside, long before high speed, or any speed, electric drills were introduced I was advised, by a future President of the RCVS, to use a foot pedal powered drill as opposed to a sort of manual scraping and wiping procedure, which I did.

These devices were akin to a stage on the Tour de France using one leg only, moreover the pedal moved away from you so you ended up doing the half splits whilst trying to polish the teeth.

When I saw him again I complained bitterly. He denied any knowledge of his previous advice and told me to get an electric drill!! [now just introduced.....]

[/quote]

Ho yus, I still have my treadle machine in the back room.

Re: In future, what procedures should RVN's be allowed to carry out?

Anthony Todd — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 10:47:01 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]I follow that, and you can divide between the two buccal roots, but how do you divide the palatal root from the two buccals?[/quote]

Um, from distant memory I don't think I ever did or needed to. Sometimes I used the blade, wrapped in a swab???

These devices were akin to a stage on the Tour de France using one leg only, moreover the pedal moved away from you so you ended up doing the half splits whilst trying to polish the teeth.

When I saw him again I complained bitterly. He denied any knowledge of his previous advice and told me to get an electric drill!! [now just introduced.....]

Re: In future, what procedures should RVN's be allowed to carry out?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:56:16 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]How do you divide an upper first molar with a hacksaw blade?[/quote]

Put the blade in upside down.

Sorry, I have to be clearer: put the blade in the hacksaw upside down, cutting side in, not out.

[/quote]

I follow that, and you can divide between the two buccal roots, but how do you divide the palatal root from the two buccals?

Re: In future, what procedures should RVN's be allowed to carry out?

Anthony Todd — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 19:39:15 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]How do you divide an upper first molar with a hacksaw blade?[/quote]

Put the blade in upside down.

Sorry, I have to be clearer: put the blade in the hacksaw upside down, cutting side in, not out.

Re: In future, what procedures should RVN's be allowed to carry out?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 19:08:42 GMT

[quote user="plantagenet"]

It is interesting to read prof Stuart Reid in 'veterinary practice' saying that he expects there to be nurse practitioners. He also goes on to say that there is a vet manpower shortage - there is? where? apparently these nurse practitioners will help to fill it.

[/quote]

Heaven help us.

Re: In future, what procedures should RVN's be allowed to carry out?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 19:06:42 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Don't knock the Junior Hacksaw blade[/quote]

No, it works fine, is very controllable and doesn't heat up the tooth like high speed drills or diamond discs can. Yes, I know about spraying water on the area.

[/quote]

You'd have to try pretty hard to overheat a tooth with the high speed handpiece. Hmm, yes, some people do try pretty hard..........

But, er, you're extracting the tooth! Doesn't matter if it gets a bit heated!

How do you divide an upper first molar with a hacksaw blade?

Re: In future, what procedures should RVN's be allowed to carry out?

Lorna McHardy — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 18:27:17 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

But do they know what to do with it? (PS - it's not a drill )(Pedant!)

[/quote]

Well, yes... but assuming that the vet in question does know how to use the thing - or more to the point, how not to use it - it's got to come under the heading of 'improvement'!

Sorry... but I will, having tried both, always knock the option of sectioning teeth with a hacksaw blade... which is all very well and good when it's the only tool available

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

At least it showed that we understood that a multi-rooted tooth had to be divided, not wrenched or ripped or smashed out "whole" . This when senior partners around the country were saying "why don't you just snap 'em off level with the gum? That's what I do".

[/quote]

Urgh. And likewise Aaaaarrrrrgggghhhhh!!!!! And moreover OW OW OW! Thankfully, I have never worked for anyone quite that cavalier about it.

Re: In future, what procedures should RVN's be allowed to carry out?

plantagenet — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 17:08:38 GMT

Re: In future, what procedures should RVN's be allowed to carry out?

Anthony Todd — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 17:07:57 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Don't knock the Junior Hacksaw blade[/quote]

No, it works fine, is very controllable and doesn't heat up the tooth like high speed drills or diamond discs can. Yes, I know about spraying water on the area.

Remember dentistry and surgery require manual dexterity and other intuitive skills which, to some extent, can't be taught. Practice makes you better but some are better than others [we've been down this track before]

Re: In future, what procedures should RVN's be allowed to carry out?

Julian Earl — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 16:07:21 GMT

See my edit^.

Re: In future, what procedures should RVN's be allowed to carry out?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 16:06:31 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]I'm sure I can remember my first practice getting a descaler in the early eighties - mainly because I remembered being taught at college a few years previously that ultrasonic scalers damaged the enamel and were not a good idea![/quote]

Oh, ultrasonic scalers. Yes the more forward-looking were using them in 1970. Good old Isephon! But not subgingivally.......... and not polishing................

and of course they do damage the enamel in the ham fist.

Re: In future, what procedures should RVN's be allowed to carry out?

Julian Earl — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 15:59:38 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Julian Earl"]What were the exception? Having a machine or not having - I assume you mean it was exceptional to have one? If so, I beg to differ, I can remember practices getting dental machines back, oooh, thirty years ago.[/quote]

In 1982? Hmm. I really think not.

[quote user="Julian Earl"]why oh why isn't dental work taught in university over a few weeks?[/quote]

As far as small animal dentistry goes, because there's no one on the staff to teach it (even if the cardiologists ahem dermatologists and neurologists would give up any time). Cambridge and Nottingham do their best, though, fair play. Edinburgh and I think Glasgow get Norman Johnston in. Liverpool and Bristol have 1.5 days lectures and 1 day practical, provided at highly subsidised cost (and even that the vet schools haggle over) by BVDA. Bristol are cutting down this time now........ But equine dentistry is fairly well taught, as far as it can be within time constraints, at Edinburgh and Bristol.

[/quote]

I'm sure I can remember my first practice getting a descaler in the early eighties - mainly because I remembered being taught at college a few years previously that ultrasonic scalers damaged the enamel and were not a good idea!

Edit: Actually, no; although we were definitely taught that about ultrasonics in final year, it was my second practice, where I am now that had the descaler in the early nineties. At my first practice my then-boss would remove difficult roots with a chisel and gentle intermittent use of a sudden-force-implementing device. But anyway, as we were taught about US they were obviously being introduced at that time but maybe widespread use was a decade later than my initial thoughts.

The other part you quote was a frustratingly rhetorical question, sadly.

Re: In future, what procedures should RVN's be allowed to carry out?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 15:45:20 GMT

Oh, and Liverpool have a radiographer who teaches dental radiography!

Re: In future, what procedures should RVN's be allowed to carry out?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 15:33:11 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]A little more help from the human dental schools would help bring treatment standards up to 21st century standards.[/quote]

[/quote]

Are there enough veterinary dentists? How much practice does a student get with root canal work?

[/quote]

I still don't follow. Endodontic treatment is not a day 1 skill.

In 1982? Hmm. I really think not.

[quote user="Julian Earl"]why oh why isn't dental work taught in university over a few weeks?[/quote]

[quote user="Julian Earl"]All of which, in answer to the original post, is why I think dental work should be vet-only.[/quote]

There you go, Toadster ! Sorry.

Re: In future, what procedures should RVN's be allowed to carry out?

Alison Clare Hickman — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 14:43:46 GMT

Am trying not to be awkward people, but aren't we off thread here? What about a separate thread for dentistry concerns? Ta!!

Re: In future, what procedures should RVN's be allowed to carry out?

Lorna McHardy — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 14:39:11 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]

What were the exception? Having a machine or not having - I assume you mean it was exceptional to have one? If so, I beg to differ, I can remember practices getting dental machines back, oooh, thirty years ago. The question of using them properly though, that is another, errrm, question. We were taught the bare minimum and had no practical work at all.

[/quote]

Your experience obviously differs from mine. It's not that many years ago since I've known many practices without one, using hand tools like the aforementioned hacksaw blade instead. Horrible.

I agree about the lack of training in this area. I don't remember dentistry even getting mentioned at university, and although I may have missed a fleeting reference, I'm pretty sure I would have noticed had it featured with any significant emphasis!

[quote user="Julian Earl"]

All of which, in answer to the original post, is why I think dental work should be vet-only.

[/quote]

That I also agree with. Mostly because I disagree with the "just book it in for a quick scale and polish" concept. There's no such thing; at the very least, that mouth requires a proper evaluation.