Cheap vets or supply and demand?

Re: Cheap vets or supply and demand?

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 09 Mar 2011 10:47:03 GMT

The other issue I have noticed concerning vets' salaries is the unwillingness of practices to discuss them at interviews. I have changed jobs twice in the past 3 years, and over the 2 changes of jobs have probably had 12 interviews. In the majority of those interviews pay was only discussed when I asked at the end of the interview, and on several occasions the partners were unable to tell me how much they would be offering, not even a rough range. On one occasion I was told by the 2 partners who interviewed me that the practice manager sorted out salaries and she wasn't working that afternoon, for that and other reasons I turned the job down!

Re: Cheap vets or supply and demand?

James Laidlaw — Tue, 08 Mar 2011 23:00:31 GMT

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]

If your work is such a burden to you that you can't wait to get away from it to get on with your 'real' life, then something is wrong.

[/quote]

Or it's time for a holiday!

Re: Cheap vets or supply and demand?

Stephen Courtney — Tue, 08 Mar 2011 22:37:25 GMT

It took me a while to get reconciled to the realities of life in general practice. But I have discovered the true secret to contentment, and i am more than happy to share.

Progressive lowering of aspirations until they match your reality.

Note, I said 'contentment'. Happiness is a bonus, and is not dependent on income, beyond certain basic minimum needs. Poverty is a massive source of unhappiness, but I am not in poverty. I suspect few of us are. And I am sure many people work just as hard as vets do, for less financial reward.

The things that make me happy? A good day at work that didn't leave me feeling like a train wreck. Surviving a duty weekend intact and knowing there isn't another one for , well, AGES! Spending time doing things i like with people I like. And solitude - 'me' time - that gives opportunity for true relaxation when away from such a people-oriented job.

If your work is such a burden to you that you can't wait to get away from it to get on with your 'real' life, then something is wrong.

Re: Cheap vets or supply and demand?

Julian Earl — Tue, 08 Mar 2011 22:21:40 GMT

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]

By charging 'properly' I mean in accordance with my practice's pricing structure - charge properly for your time, don't empty anal glands for peanuts, don't give drugs away / 'forget.' to charge for injections...equally, don't rip folk off by giving injections when oral meds kick in as quickly - but i know some people 'expect' an injection and feel you haven't worked your magic unless a needle has been involved.

I also appreciate the leeway to have discretion with charging - I try to always charge something but it is very hard to keep charging consultations for those weird cases that need to keep coming back, or the little old ladies who's life revolves around the care of a decrepit old pet and for whom a visit to the vet is a reassuring trip out for the day. I think we all have special cases like that - or is it just me??! [/quote]

All good, but when we, as a profession, complain that we are poorly paid, remembering to add those forgotten items is not going to boost our salary all that much. The more efficient a practice, the less diffference it will make.

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]

I really do think we should stop envying the medics. They work hard for their money, they carry greater responsibility on a real-world basis, and let's face it, sick people are probably the most annoying people in the world. Most of my work stress comes from imagined illnesses in fur-kids, imagine how hard it is for a GP when they are real kids?[/quote]

I agree - I would hate to have human patients - but why do so many of us complain that we are poorly paid professionals? Someone upthere had it right when comparing orthopods tocosmetic surgeons to footballers or whatever. The only way we could attain the levels of pay that we perceive human medics earn would be by retaining the numbers of clients that we have AND charging significantly higher fees. And that ain't gonna happen. The sooner that people realise this, the sooner that one source of disillusionment will be removed from the profession.

Re: Cheap vets or supply and demand?

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 08 Mar 2011 20:45:12 GMT

I do think that veterinary pricing could do with being more transparent. Not exactly sure how; but I can understand a little client frustration where we can't give them a fixed price for anything besides neutering, vaccines, and dewormers. (Ok, yes, I'm exaggerating a bit. But getting ranges of estimates can get frustrating if we're not good at giving an estimate of costs, or not clear to the client on what we're delivering.)

(Read the article on veterinary pricing transparency in the March Vet Practice; good points in there.)

Re: Cheap vets or supply and demand?

Stephen Courtney — Tue, 08 Mar 2011 20:28:13 GMT

I really do think we should stop envying the medics. They work hard for their money, they carry greater responsibility on a real-world basis, and let's face it, sick people are probably the most annoying people in the world. Most of my work stress comes from imagined illnesses in fur-kids, imagine how hard it is for a GP when they are real kids?

Re: Cheap vets or supply and demand?

James Laidlaw — Tue, 08 Mar 2011 18:48:24 GMT

Well, with dreams of charging "properly" or more for our time, I was just told this minute by a cliet - to my face no less - that the charges were disgraceful for treating her cat's abcess. After she cancelled an appointment and just had medications. And isn't insured.

Oh, and I've worked at clinics that charge at least 3 times as much as this would cost.

Good luck with the price increases.

Re: Cheap vets or supply and demand?

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 08 Mar 2011 17:59:59 GMT

Ooh, many thanks, hadn't seen that one yet.

Re: Cheap vets or supply and demand?

Tim Mainland — Tue, 08 Mar 2011 17:14:46 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

Deskilling? What article was that? Would be interested to read it...

[/quote]

"Veterinary Practice", March 2011 front page lead article,

Re: Cheap vets or supply and demand?

Julian Earl — Tue, 08 Mar 2011 14:52:15 GMT

In response to all of those commenting about price fixing, the OP was not a proposal, informal or otherwise; it was more a "what if" scenario about if we were charging fees equivalent to private medicine or solicitors' fees - what would happen then to our workload, andour stress levels?

I know of a sports injury specialist charging £100 for every consultation, £50 for looking at x rays (separate from the radiologist's fees), plus another £100 to discuss the x rays with the patient. How would the profession fare if we had similar fees? My belief is that we charge at a level that clients are willing to pay. Of course, individual practices can target differet parts of the market, but the principle still applies.

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]

I think the first place to start is to charge properly for the work we do. I work hard, have decent time off, and am comfortable with the level of charges in most cases. I have some leeway as an employee, for discretion with charging, which I try not to abuse - the learning disabled lady with a cavalier in CHF who can, just, afford her meds but can't afford consult fees - well, she pays for her meds, I look after her dog, and I get to sleep at night.

I'd like to hear a little less of the comparisons with medics' pay. I don't really care. I made my choice 25 years ago, and I've no regrets.

[/quote]

Here's the rub, you see. What do you mean by charging "properly"? You state you are happy with the fees, but you want to charge "properly". Ignoring matters like missed items on an invoice, and discounts for charity cases, what is "properly"? I can only assume that you don't mean "less"? But if you (and I don't just mean you personally Stephen, more like if one...) want to charge more then how much more? Because unless fees are multiplied up by some figure, then profit margins will never go up to the level that we think we are worth.

On the other hand, put them up by that unspecified significant multiple and a proportion of clients would be driven away. This veterinary urban myth of double your fees, lose half your clients and increase your profits for an easier life is nonsensical and a sure way to cripple most practices.

[quote user="Camilla Edwards"]

Maybe we have a tendency to believe what the Daliy mail says about other professions too. I'm married to a Doctor who is in training to be a GP. He qualified 6 months before me. For a short time initially I was earning more than him. Even now 5-6 years down the line, I'm not earning that much less than him, (if you take into account that I'm part time and he's full time). It's only in the last year or two that he's been allowed to take holiday when he wanted too, otherwise hospitals told him when he had holiday, and he had to change jobs every 3-6 months for quite a few years anywhere within a region which when you think about how large East Anglia is doesn't make it easy to settle down or have a partner in a permanent job!

...TBH I think what Doctors do is more important than what particularly us small animal vets do, and it's right that they should be paid more.

The grass isn't always greener on the other side [/quote]

The pay may or may not be much different, although the oft-quoted £106,000 average for a GP makes fools of us - more so if true! But our local practice (docs) has a night rota where they do a part of a night two or three times a month. Okay, they cover a damn big area when they are on duty but at least it can be for as little as three or four hours. Personally, I don't want more pay - well, not much want, not much more pay - I want more time. That's the killer.

Re: Cheap vets or supply and demand?

bob lehner — Tue, 08 Mar 2011 14:25:26 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Not sure I agree that we are less important than doctors. It is true that some doctors save lives some of the time, do dramatic things but if you consider both jobs in terms of peoples welfare things even out considerably.

[/quote]

To be honest I do get a bit fed up with all the people on these forums (? fora) who keep banging on about wanting to earn as much as doctors. If you want it that much why didn't you go to medical school in the first place - I'm sure you were all quite clever enough to do so.

Talk to doctors and you'll find the grass isn't always as green on that side of the fence - they moan constantly about the govt interfering in their lives with each successive govt turning the NHS upside down again. Interestingly I was talking to a 4th year vet student the other day and he told me he had 2-3 students in his year who had already graduated in medicine, not liked what they found and gone back to study vet med !

Unless you are Richard Branson, someone else is always going to earn more than you. I fear the moaners in our ranks, if they were in medicine, would complain that academic/research doctors earn less than clinicians, whilst a consultant general surgeon with a private list earns more than a GP, but probably less than an orthopod, who probably in turn earns less than a plastic surgeon operating on A -list celebs (but then he probably earns a lot less than the celebs) and so on.....

Rightly or wrongly and unfair as it might seem, I think society will probably judge that those who treat other people should earn more than those who treat their bunny rabbits.

Having said that, I am very happy to record that for the years that I was in a partnership in a good solid mixed practice in a reasonably affluent area of the country the partners' earnings most years matched or exceeded what medical GPs were earning at the time (although they have gone up in the last few years as a result of a monumental cock-up in negotiating their contracts by the last govt, that even the BMA said was too good to be true).

Re: Cheap vets or supply and demand?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 08 Mar 2011 14:22:42 GMT

[quote user="Vikki Halliday"]That was why I commented that our forebears in the veterinary science field were usually from wealthy educated families,[/quote]

Are you sure of that?

[quote user="Vikki Halliday"] and the average household could not afford pets unless they were serving some function. The rich had pets, the poor had livestock.[/quote]

Well, a pet is a luxury item, after all.

Re: Cheap vets or supply and demand?

Vikki Halliday LLB — Tue, 08 Mar 2011 14:03:04 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]is running a practice 'a job or an expensive hobby?'[/quote]

The latter.

That was why I commented that our forebears in the veterinary science field were usually from wealthy educated families, and the average household could not afford pets unless they were serving some function. The rich had pets, the poor had livestock.

But then we also used to send children up chimneys........

I agree somewhat with you Bob, but I do think that the pet market is as large as it has ever been. The problem is more complex than just diminishing market and increasing competition.

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

The profession is IMO on a downhill spiral. Too many vets chasing too few patients. Aggressive pricing by companies large enough to damage independent practices but hopefully not enough to destroy them.

[/quote]

You have to look at what some vets are doing in terms of perpetuating the myths of cheap veterinary care.

Is it really in keeping with the oath you and I swore to simply keep giving out e.g. canaural and preds ad-infinitum to a labrador with recurrent otitis and pedal dermatitis, and only mention to the owner in passing that it is "probably seasonal allergy" without sitting them down, explaining the root cause of the problem and offering a full investigation including allergy testing.

I see a number of animals coming to us where the previous practices have shuffled off the responsiblity of allowing owners to make informed decisions as to what they want for their animal, and simply assumed that by providing them with an adequate affordable service, they would keep coming back.

Is it acceptable to perpetuate the myth of affordable bitch speys by allowing some practices to carry them out for vastly reduced rates under outdated anaesthetics?

We struggle to make a decent return on ours because we insist on Gold Standard anaesthesia where possible for the safety and welfare of the animal, yet have to compete with vets who hide behind the Oath to protect their client base, but are pretty shoddy in their interpretation of it when it comes to the actual clinical cases they treat.

The problem is more that although vets cry " we want a level playing field", (i.e they don't like the fact that corporate practice is well and truly here to stay), there cannot be a level playing field so long as outdated practices and protocols are used.

The public simply do not understand the difference in the main, as to whether you are practicing good medicine or not, but that is what the oath is all about IMHO.

It is not to be used as a pseudo-moral excuse for preventing clients making any kind of informed choice about their current or future veterinary practice, preventing competition and protecting business.

It should be exercised to practice the best medicine possible, and to respect the wishes of clients, further the choice available and encourage responsible pet ownership and pet insurance.

Re: Cheap vets or supply and demand?

Bob Russell — Tue, 08 Mar 2011 11:24:25 GMT

[quote user="Camilla Edwards"]

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]

Let alone what the public and Daily Mail readers generally think we get.

[/quote]

Having said all that he will be starting a part time partnership later this year and his wages do increase a bit then (but not as much as you might think!)

TBH I think what Doctors do is more important than what particularly us small animal vets do, and it's right that they should be paid more.

The grass isn't always greener on the other side

[/quote]

Our job is to keep our patients well and our patients play a significant role in keeping owners well both mentally and physically. The tendency is to compare ourselves with medics because there is a degree of similarity in the work we do. In a comparison with solicitors, dentists and opticians we do not fare particularly well either.

Re: Cheap vets or supply and demand?

Camilla Edwards — Tue, 08 Mar 2011 10:35:17 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]

Let alone what the public and Daily Mail readers generally think we get.

[/quote]

Having said all that he will be starting a part time partnership later this year and his wages do increase a bit then (but not as much as you might think!)

TBH I think what Doctors do is more important than what particularly us small animal vets do, and it's right that they should be paid more.

The grass isn't always greener on the other side

Re: Cheap vets or supply and demand?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 08 Mar 2011 09:52:51 GMT

PS to above-a 400% increase in fees would be excessive and lead to untreated animals-but the UK average seems to be that adjusted net profit is 20% ex-VAT turnover, so a 20% increase should be affordable to the owners,and double profit , sowe would have less of a gap with doctors-although if spread between all veterinary surgeons-both practice owners and employees, would stillnot bring us to the level of medical GPs

Wynne

Re: Cheap vets or supply and demand?

Bob Russell — Tue, 08 Mar 2011 09:52:44 GMT

A previous thread discussed advice we would give to a teenager wanting to enter the profession. I had a number of negative comments made when I stated my advice would be 'don't'.

Competition is all well and good but the next step is for disillusioned vets fed up with poor salaries setting up their own practices (as I did!) in an attempt to secure a fair income.

To some extent 'I am all right Jack' but I cannot see a secure future for any of us as competition pushes prices down - perhaps to uneconomic levels. All we need to charge is enough to make a fair profit to allow proper salaries for staff, a fair return on risk and capital for practice owners.

Previous generations of vets accepted poor salaries and conditions early on with the expectation of a good return once they became partners. Is this going to happen now and in the future?

As things stand I suspect vets will continue to be paid poorly in comparison to professionals of similar standing but to continue to be poorly paid to retirement.

There was an article in one of the business journals a number of years ago titled is running a practice 'a job or an expensive hobby?'

Once again I would discourage anyone entering the profession, not because it is a bad job, it isn't. It is however a potentially disastrous career choice unless incomes rise. Perhaps not four-fold but still significantly.

Competition will see that this cannot happen. My job is to survive the profession until I retire (probably at 70 judging by my pension!).

Re: Cheap vets or supply and demand?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 08 Mar 2011 09:25:36 GMT

We can't all raise fees together, or we would be price fixing,and that would be illegal

I do,however think our charges and incomes should be closer to those enjoined by doctors and dentists-though 4 x is excessive, and would probably lead to an increase in animal suffering-unless the public took the insurence message on board

I love my job-have never wanted to do anything but cure sick animals, but I didn't expect this huge income gap with doctors when I started . I'm a generation older than a lot of you, so formed my impressions of veterinary income at an earlier time-when I was a grammar school farmer's daughter, and saw my father's veterinary surgeon educating 3 children privately.

If I could increase my income, I could keep more horses-all but 1 of mine are rescue cases-so an increase in profit would further animal welfare-not be squandered on foreign holidays/nightclubs etc

Wynne

Re: Cheap vets or supply and demand?

James Laidlaw — Mon, 07 Mar 2011 23:17:15 GMT

We aren't doctors, granted. But neither are we lawyers, dentists, plumbers... Or any other number of "professions" that charge significantly more than us for equal or lesser (or greater) work. Did the 5 years+ of studying mean nothing in terms of hard graft and responsibility? Does the oath to protect animals and their welfare, and the risk of being sued, struck off, hauled across the disciplinary coals mean nothing?

I don't think we should be paid the same as all other professions, but I think when it comes to vets a lot of staff are either underpaid, overworked or a combination of the two. There's always excuses along the lines of "we all knew it was going to be this way" or "this isn't a nine to five job" or "variety gives me job satisfaction, I don't care about money" but the reality (in my mind) is we sell and charge ourselves short. Nurses in particular work damned hard for little financial reward. Practices that aren't parts of large chains are clearly having difficulties getting set up and staying afloat. The massive chains don't make much money for anyone other than those at the top of the pile. It's all a bit of a downer when you look at it - because the reality is already stated, if we charged more, animals would suffer more. I think there's enough cases out there that we see where people have left things to the last minute to bring in, that there has to be a substantial proportion which don't get brought in. Those cases we never see.

Don't get me wrong - I love this job. But I don't think we get what we really deserve for the work and time the majority of us put in. Let alone what the public and Daily Mail readers generally think we get.

Re: Cheap vets or supply and demand?

Vikki Halliday LLB — Mon, 07 Mar 2011 22:23:53 GMT

[quote user="Tim Mainland"]But ultimately our profession has far too many egos for it to hold to any agreed line whatsoever[/quote]

And therein lies the problem!

We can't price fix.

But we could lobby for legislation to ensure that all owners of pets must insure them against basic illness......sort of third party, fire and theft insurance, so that if an animal is genuinely in need, they receive either the basic care or euthanasia that they need, without the veterinary profession having to act as a pseudo-charity due to a high moral conscience oath which was more appropriate when Veterinary Surgeons were by definition, wealthy enough to afford the education to become the defenders of animal welfare.

In addition, compulsory microchipping to ensure that owners of abandoned and untreated animals are traced and prosecuted, and this would ultimately take the pressure off the charities who currently provide higher standards of veterinary care to the parasitic humans who plague our benefits culture society, thus leaving them free to assist those in genuine need to ensure higher standards of veterinary care to those animals who's owners currently fall outside of the benefits net.

I don't think we need a Veterinary Union, I don't necessarily want to charge higher fees. I just want to be able to practice the good medicine and surgery I have learnt, without having to constantly euthanase pets who's owners thought that insurance was a luxury, and limit my treatments to the cheap and cheerful "quick fixes" favoured by some practices.

Utopia I know, but entirely possible.

You can't take a car on the road without insurance, so why should it not apply to pets?

Re: Cheap vets or supply and demand?

Mark Hedberg — Mon, 07 Mar 2011 21:57:12 GMT

Deskilling? What article was that? Would be interested to read it...

Re: Cheap vets or supply and demand?

Tim Mainland — Mon, 07 Mar 2011 21:35:43 GMT

Of course it wouldn't happen.....would it? Or has it not already happened? In the responses so far, I feel that I've heard a description of the current two tier system of insured and non-insured clients in the world of referral centres.Interesting article in one of the Vet Rags the other day about the consequent deskilling of primary vet practices. Something we feel keenly with 3 referral centres, inc Leahurst, within only a few miles.

Of course for us all to do it, we'd have the OFT on our backs accusing our complex monopoly of having become a cartel. But ultimately our profession has far too many egos for it to hold to any agreed line whatsoever. It's very hard to philosophise on the consequences of something that just ain't gonna happen.

Re: Cheap vets or supply and demand?

Mark Hedberg — Mon, 07 Mar 2011 20:50:21 GMT

I think that realistically this would never happen. Media would crucify vets as a whole - not just the medivet ones, all of us. Panorama would be the comedic prelude to what we'd go through. Once and for all vets would be "exposed" as the money grubbing shysters they've always suspected us of being.

Untrue? Of course. But to steal one of Herriott's quotes, as the last medical professionals who need to be paid, we're a bit alone here.

Pet ownership would be largely unaffected. People would wholesale migrate to anyplace with an internet connection, and telemedicine would skyrocket. Veterinary surgeons would be absolutely cut out of the loop, and people would order even more medicines off the internet. (I'm sure the VMD are wonderful people, but they'll never be able to police this.)

Veterinary practice would be brought to it's knees practically instantly. A huge chunk of clients would instantly be simply and physically unable to pay for vet treatment.

Unless of course the client were insured. I can see this increasing pet insurance uptake, but this would then fix in stone the two-tier veterinary treatment system. Insured people get vet care, uninsured don't.

Another huge chunk of clients would simply decide not to pay for vet treatment. I can see the RSPCA's hotline ringing overtime as neglected animals are reported ever more frequently.

Of course it wouldn't happen - with all due respect, the UK can't agree on how to control TB, so something as small as consult fees isn't going to be fixed either. Plus, colluding to unanimously increase fees would likely fall foul of antitrust law.

I suppose I could see a veterinary union pulling together this kind of collective power, but I have my doubts. I mean, honestly - exactly how are they planning to go on strike?

Perhaps I'm too pessimistic. Hope I am, anyway. I just don't see "raising prices" as the answer here.

Effective, efficient relationships with pet owning clients is the answer. Perhaps a pipe dream, but sometimes some of them listen. :)

Re: Cheap vets or supply and demand?

Stephen Courtney — Mon, 07 Mar 2011 19:42:56 GMT

We are NOT doctors. We made a choice to be vets, knowing that rewards were lower. I have to be honest. I truly believed that levels of responsibility were lower, and that helped me decide between med school and vet school. Needless to say I have had a reality check since qualifying, and do feel a bit hard done by at times. As a profession we seem to be eager to regulate ourselves ( or allow it to happen) into ever tighter knots, in ways that seem to diminish out ability to help people look after their pets - the Cascade system for non food animals is a major case in point - it has done little more than drive the cost of medications up.

Quadrupling fees....no. Can't see it. It would reduce the pet owning proportion of the population that keeps us busy. Worse than that, it would cut off a large proportion of the population that are just plain poor, yet have no access to charitable help because they work in low paid jobs rather than parasitise the state. I can't see how I can square the concept with my veterinary oath, which I take seriously.

I'd like to hear a little less of the comparisons with medics' pay. I don't really care. I made my choice 25 years ago, and I've no regrets.