Post Mortems in SA practice

Re: Post Mortems in SA practice

Rob Loxley — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 01:08:25 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]Does anyone ever charge for these?[/quote] If the client requests a PM - IME often after sudden deaths in otherwise 'well' animals - they are charged for the time +/- any lab samples; however having a vet school close by most PMs are sent there and charged to the client. If it's a quick peek and see then maybe no charge, but always consent.

Another local practice has tickboxes on the PTS consent form for disposal options: take home/ mass cremation/ individual cremation/ donation of body for teaching or further educational purposes - allows for PMs but also retaining bodies for cadaver surgery etc.

Re: Post Mortems in SA practice

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 22:42:23 GMT

Yes - I'd always ask.

I did frighten the life out of myself a few years ago. I had a 6mo farm cat spay that had to be put in the squeeze cage so wasn't checked before GA. It then rapidly developed respiratory arrest on GA and xrays showed a 'white' chest. The owners didn't want to pay a lot for a feral cat so it was PTS and they told us they were leaving the cat with us. Assuming that there was little sentiment involved, I put a 5cm incision into chest to see what was going on.....and....you've guessed - they rang back later to pick the cat up. After a chat (when I was very honest about what I had done) they revealed they were simply saving the cost of cremation and would bury the cat themselves. They were, as it happens, interested in what I found (neoplasia). Taught me never to do that again though........

Re: Post Mortems in SA practice

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 10:17:44 GMT

ALWAYS ASK Otherwise it is seen by owners as a massive abuse of trust

Wynne

Re: Post Mortems in SA practice

Richard Fox — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 07:42:26 GMT

No. Annoying it is but....... The typical scenario is one does a "quick PM" without the owners knowledge and then they want the body back for burial? Then they ask the question why has....... Don't forget how compassionate people were about the Alder Hey!!

Re: Post Mortems in SA practice

James Laidlaw — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 07:09:00 GMT

Does anyone ever charge for these? I always get permission or refusal from the clien first, and don't think I've ever charged if it's primarily for my benefit (it's very rarely of a large benefit to the client by that stage!!!)

Re: Post Mortems in SA practice

Glen McIntosh — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 01:16:15 GMT

No, I have never performed a PM without the owners express consent, nor would I ever. But I frequently do ask for consent for PM and around 50% will give that consent.

This is very much a trust issue, and it is entirely the owners right to decide if a PM is performed or not on their animals remains (apart from certain suspected cases of notifiable disease such as rabies). If the owner found out that you had performed a PM without their permission then they are likely to be very angry and would certainly have grounds for a complaint to the RCVS and I would suspect that that complaint would be hard to defend. But more than that, it is simply common courtesy, and respectful to and mindful of the owner-animal bond to ask for permission. And if we are not mindful of that then maybe we shouldn't be in this profession.

There is never any harm in asking, if done tactfully. You could always phone the owners for permission if they have already left. At worst they can only say no, but then you should follow their wishes.

The RCVS has an advice note dealing with the issue. Advice note 32 paragraph 11 says:

11. Veterinary surgeons wishing to carry out a post-mortem examination upon animals which they have previously treated, in order to satisfy themselves as to the cause of death, (rather than at the request of the client) must seek the permission of the client to carry out such an examination. Consent may be provided verbally, for example, by telephone, although it is best practice to obtain the consent in writing, for example, on a specific consent form which may provide for the use and re-use of samples.

Re: Post Mortems in SA practice

Kirsten Simpson — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 00:05:07 GMT

My old boss was had up for doing this in Honk Kong, when he worked there for a bit. Was positive this cat had a liver tumour, owners opted for euth. He then chopped it open to confirm his diagnosis and popped the cat in the bag. THEN the owners came back in a day or so later to say "gooybye" to the cat and were horrified when the bag was opened for them and all Kittys guts and blood came pouring out with him! No idea what actually happened...

Re: Post Mortems in SA practice

svn — Tue, 15 Feb 2011 23:29:31 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

Maybe this would lend itself to a poll? I have no problem in principal, but imagine the owner would be almost as interested as the vet in the outcome. I do a few PM's and always have a chat with the owner as to what I've found.

[/quote]

It's the consent thing that gets me

If the owner has consented to a PM - fair enough - go for it!

If the owner has signed their much loved member of the family over to us for a dignified disposal, as much as we can offer, then I feel that 'A quick incision and a look to see if this, that or the other diagnosis was correct' is not the way to go unless PM consent is obtained.

No?

Re: Post Mortems in SA practice

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 15 Feb 2011 23:17:21 GMT

Re: Post Mortems in SA practice

svn — Tue, 15 Feb 2011 23:14:38 GMT

If euth'd under GA then I agree - let the vet student practice suturing! Or the VN

I'm asking more about the usual consult PTS scenario, no mention of PM to client, such and such crem agreed, but then vet comes tearing throu to the prep room, and can hardly wait for a sz 20 blade, for a 'quick pm' to see if his/her dx was correct.

Our nurses, new grads and bosses all say nooooo! No consent, No PM!!!

Re: Post Mortems in SA practice

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 15 Feb 2011 23:02:29 GMT

No, but I am never afraid to ask. If they are taking the pet home I have never asked. If they leave the dog with us for disposal I can't see an issue. Have let vet students practice suturing, neutering etc on dead strays brought in for disposal.