Can we do anything in this situation?

Re: Can we do anything in this situation?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 15 Feb 2011 15:07:56 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]It probably won't be long before Gillian and I are arguing heatedly again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/quote]

I do hope so - I enjoy a good argument. !!

Glad to see the exclamation marks have made a comeback!

Re: Can we do anything in this situation?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 15 Feb 2011 13:00:45 GMT

Bob Is that why your not smiling in your photo

Re: Can we do anything in this situation?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 15 Feb 2011 12:53:41 GMT

At this rate, I'm in danger of sounding like Gillian's echo-but again I totally agree with her-just because farmers are prepared to tolerate poor post-operative pain relief doesn't mean their veterinary surgeons should goalong with them

It probably won't be long before Gillian and I are arguing heatedly again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wynne

Re: Can we do anything in this situation?

Malcolm Ness — Tue, 15 Feb 2011 12:51:15 GMT

A word of caution:

I see a several cases each year of distal limb wounds that have been treated as "Minor" in the ways described above which have subsequently turned out to involve tendon damage. At the very least, I encourage vets seeing these cases to make a written note in the case history to show that they have considered and looked for tendon involvement before the staples are whacked in.

Re: Can we do anything in this situation?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 15 Feb 2011 12:13:13 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I cut my hand on some glass ~ 2.5-3cm wound to the palm of my hand. Stapled it back together myself. Stings slightly, but no more than an injection.[/quote]

BUT that was your decision, with full knowledge and understanding of what was being done and I assume you kept your hand very still while doing the stapling?

Again, large animal vs small animal vet. I guess some large animal vets do seem to have a different opinion of what constitutes a welfare issue....maybe if cows and sheep were able to cry, howl and bite back then their standards of pain relief would be better?

Re: Can we do anything in this situation?

Bob Russell — Tue, 15 Feb 2011 11:35:10 GMT

Wow vets supplying do it yourself wound repair kits. Do you include a course of antibiotics and a DIY guide for wound repair? I seem to remember being taught how to deal with wounds properly.

Do you have DIY neutering kits as well?

Re: Can we do anything in this situation?

bob lehner — Tue, 15 Feb 2011 09:46:51 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]When we first got the skin stapler I put a couple in my arm to see if it hurt.[/quote]

Yes - I did a similar self trial when we first bought a Burdizzo - but regretted it afterwards.

Re: Can we do anything in this situation?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 15 Feb 2011 09:44:29 GMT

I'm100 % with Gillian on this one

Wynne

Re: Can we do anything in this situation?

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 15 Feb 2011 00:07:42 GMT

I cut my hand on some glass ~ 2.5-3cm wound to the palm of my hand. Stapled it back together myself. Stings slightly, but no more than an injection.

When we first got the skin stapler I put a couple in my arm to see if it hurt. IMHO injecting the sedative or local would be more painful.

I do mean superficial skin wounds, that are clean and not undermining.

Re: Can we do anything in this situation?

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 14 Feb 2011 23:54:26 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]What's the issue with them doing it rather than us?[/quote]

I can't believe you asked that!

I'm all for accepting we aren't the only ones who can carry out some minor tasks. But repairing a wound? I do think I am a better judge of what is needed to be done there!

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]The type you'd just clip, clean and staple in the consult. [/quote]

I guess I wouldn't do that in very many cases......not without some degree of analgesia and local anaesthesia +/- sedation. Otherwise you can end up with a dog that won't let you near it ever again!! My baseline decision for making is whether I'd want it done to me....

Re: Can we do anything in this situation?

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 14 Feb 2011 21:40:10 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]It amazes me that surgical staplers are available on ebay for any Tom, Dick or Harry to purchase for those surgical problems owners are too mean to have sorted properly by a vet.[/quote]

Erm what's the issue? We have sold an odd skin stapler to gamekeepers for dogs with minor cuts. The type you'd just clip, clean and staple in the consult. What's the issue with them doing it rather than us?

Re: Can we do anything in this situation?

Bob Russell — Mon, 14 Feb 2011 15:41:56 GMT

[quote user="Vikki Halliday"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Our place is to try to ensure the ongoing welfare of that particular animal (even if by euthanasia) as it is in our 'direct' care at the time of the consultation. It is not our place to put an individual at risk 'for the greater good'. This is one of the particularly daft judgements to come from the RCVS.

It is a legal responsibility (as well as a moral one) to report suspected animal abuse (a criminal offence) to the correct authorities! The RCVS should be backing us to the hilt on this one and showing proper authority rather than cowardice.

[/quote]

Whilst I do not disagree with the sentiment, nor with the oath that I swore on graduation, there are other issues and wider concerns regarding the use of information to which we are priviledge, for the reporting of offences such as these.

If there were a blanket approval by the RCVS of disclosure of information regarding welfare infringements and potential illegal activity, this would undoubtedly lead to poorer welfare as owners become reluctant to bring animals for treatment.

[/quote]

Suspected illegal activity is just that. We have to make a judgement as to the 'severity' of the case. A lot of the animals used for baiting and fighting are not likely to receive proper veterinary care any way. It is our responsibility that welfare cases are brought to the attention of the correct authorities.

Do doctors refuse to disclose suspected child abuse because it may result in abused children not receiving medical attention? Not sure that the arguments are that different.

Re: Can we do anything in this situation?

Vikki Halliday LLB — Mon, 14 Feb 2011 15:11:51 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

[/quote]

Re: Can we do anything in this situation?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 14 Feb 2011 14:34:56 GMT

Hear hear Bob

Wynne

Re: Can we do anything in this situation?

Bob Russell — Mon, 14 Feb 2011 13:31:36 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Bob I agree very strongly that it is not appropriate to ignore welfare issues this severe because it might deter owners seeking treatment-the cause of my 1st criticising the judgement of RCVS Councillors (1987 )

Wynne

[/quote]

Re: Can we do anything in this situation?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 14 Feb 2011 13:00:50 GMT

Wynne

Re: Can we do anything in this situation?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 14 Feb 2011 12:58:26 GMT

Normally I'm the one who always says "obey the Gto PC " but this case is so extreme, I would have confiscated the dog, phoned RSPCA, police, customs and excise, and VMD, and argued the legality/morality afterwards

What about an anonymous tip-off to League against Cruel Sports-some of their balaclava-clad saboteurs sound like exactly what this bloke needs

(did I actually say that ????????????)

Wynne

Re: Can we do anything in this situation?

Bob Russell — Mon, 14 Feb 2011 12:21:44 GMT

It amazes me that surgical staplers are available on ebay for any Tom, Dick or Harry to purchase for those surgical problems owners are too mean to have sorted properly by a vet.

RSPCA would be logical but if the injuries are in line with dog fighting/badger bating the Police would be the ones to contact (not sure the RCVS would help). As previously suggested perhaps wait a few weeks and if necessary phone Crimestoppers anonymously. If the individual has previously had a run in with the law they would probably investigate. If he has a clean record obviously they may not react.

Has anyone had a recent conversation with the RCVS about suspected dog fights/badger baiting? If so what was the response?

Is it appropriate to ignore a welfare issue on the grounds that it may prevent owners seeking veterinary attention? I think not!

Re: Can we do anything in this situation?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 14 Feb 2011 02:27:08 GMT

PS "Hunting" is not exactly the right word for the activity or activities in which such blokes engage such dogs with badgers.

Re: Can we do anything in this situation?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 14 Feb 2011 02:18:44 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]Why would your safety be at risk? Is there even more to this?

[/quote]

No real reason for me to worry about my safety, I just assumed that he might not be too happy if he was reported, would know it was me/our practice and perhaps make a few threats! I don't know a lot about his background but people like that generally aren't good news...!

[/quote]

If he starts threatening behaviour.......... or gets some criminal convictions......... he will have his firearms certificate revoked and his guns confiscated.

And if he presently has a firearm without a certificate, he is in big trouble.

Re: Can we do anything in this situation?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 14 Feb 2011 02:08:56 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

Well, you could then suggest you PTS at the practice for the price of a cartridge.

[/quote]

I did consider this, but I think as Vickki rightly says, this would open up a whole new issue of him then expecting free/discounted treatments if he threatened poor welfare. I can almost be sure he is the type of person to do this.

[/quote]

Yes, but he's probably going to do that anyway. Who cares what he "expects"?

Re: Can we do anything in this situation?

Utlendigur — Sun, 13 Feb 2011 22:50:49 GMT

Wait a few weeks/months then phone RSPCA/Crime stoppers saying you suspect him of badger baiting etc?

Re: Can we do anything in this situation?

An On MRCVS — Sun, 13 Feb 2011 22:03:10 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]Why would your safety be at risk? Is there even more to this?

[/quote]

Re: Can we do anything in this situation?

James Laidlaw — Sun, 13 Feb 2011 21:36:46 GMT

Why would your safety be at risk? Is there even more to this?

Re: Can we do anything in this situation?

An On MRCVS — Sun, 13 Feb 2011 21:05:04 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

Well, you could then suggest you PTS at the practice for the price of a cartridge.

[/quote]

Mark - of course we haven't signed any illegal certificates, and we never will. But thank you for checking!

The main reason I haven't reported this yet was that my colleagues, when told of the incident, said that is just what he is like, he has always been like that, and told me a few more stories. I think I need to have a discussion with my boss about reporting this man. I am a bit scared that he will know it was me, as like everyone says, it doesn't take a genius to work out who it might have been! Apparently he's all talk and no action, but I wouldn't like to have my safety at risk because of it all.