Do you think I'll get struck off for refusing a house call?

Re: Do you think I'll get struck off for refusing a house call?

Utlendigur — Sat, 12 Feb 2011 13:27:46 GMT

The dog is not ill, injured or in pain so there's no welfare reason to visit. If the owner is so terrified of the dog that she won't even go into the same room, it seems to me the only feasible option is euthanasia. I would have probably offered a visit to PTS (provided it could be done safely), but made it clear that was all I would be prepared to do. If the owner declined that advice - as she seems to have done - I would have recorded in the notes that PTS (and her legal responibilities under the Dangerous Dog's act) were advised and the advice declined, and left the ball back in her court. There is nothing in the VSA or GTPC that says we have to transport or board dogs for owners. Plus, not only would you be putting your own safety at risk transporting an aggressive, probably emotionally hyped up dog (unless in a crate or behind a fixed dog guard) but you would also be risking causing an accident to other road users if it suddenly went crazy in your car. Provided you got it to the surgery, what then? there's no guarantee the behviourist would take it, the owner may well refuse to have it back or allow pts, and you get stuck with the responsibility of a dangerous dog.

I had a vaguely similar case a few years ago when a woman rang me just before midnight demanding I came out to collect her 12wk old kitten because it had just scratched her daughter. I told her to shut the kitten in another room with food, litter tray etc and phone rescue centres, CPL etc the next morning as it wasn't a veterinary matter and we could not accept animals for rehoming. The torrent of verbal abuse I received reinforced my decision not to visit....

Re: Do you think I'll get struck off for refusing a house call?

trekking vet — Sat, 12 Feb 2011 12:08:21 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

[quote user="Julian Earl"]

As for anecdotes: I was called to euthanase a GSD that had bitten several people in the family and the police had somehow managed to get the dog into the enclosed back yard behind the terraced house. I arrived to find two police officers chasing this terrified GSD round the yard with riot shields. I told them to leave the poor dog alone, walked up and put a lead and muzzle on the dog and euthanased it. The police are not necessarily the best people to be involved - a vet is.

[/quote]

I remember a case several years ago where a young vet equipped with a broken and inadequate dog catcher, and a nurse left an OOH clinic unattended to attend a call to euthanase an out of control "large SBT X" (AKA as a Pit Bull??) that had gone ballistic and bitten several people in a tower block in an area where the police only venture in 4's with guns and dogs. The vet got bitten, and the nurse was quite badly injured requiring surgery (She was left with infected wounds and eventual scars, spelling an end to her planned modelling career). In the end the local police dog handler equipped with strong dog catcher and protective clothing managed to restrain the dog so a second vet could get Domitor into the thing. An armed police response unit was on standby, but they wanted to try and catch the dog first, as they would have had to evacuate the whole block at 2 am. The police questioned why they were not called in the first instance.

The first vet was foolish, reckless and possibly negligent. He was not properly equipped, he failed to carry out an adequate risk assessment, and he put himself and others at the risk of serious, potentially fatal, injury. In addition he left an OOH/emergency clinic unattended with no OOH cover available for several practices. I don't now the end result, but the nurse was taking legal advice regarding suing the vet and the practice owners for injury and loss of her planned career in modelling.

[/quote]

If the animal is loose and incredibly aggressive, a dog catcher is useless as a restraining instrument. Although very useful once the loop is place over the animals head and on his neck, the procedure requires the operator to get close to the animal and in a fast moving animal, this can be difficult. A very useful device is a deerpole syringe. I have used in the past in fractious animals of all sizes in the past to great effect.

I do sympathise with the author of this thread. 3 months ago a women brought in an aggressive collie cross into the clinic to see if I thought this dog could be rehomed. The owners husband had been hospitalised after the said dog had ripped his arm to a point where amputation was almost considered. I spent 40 long minutes before finally convincing her that her dog was not safe to be rehomed and was euthanased.

The question I asked myself is that should this person be allowed to keep such a dog?

Other than that, call the police, it should be their problem not anyone elses.

Re: Do you think I'll get struck off for refusing a house call?

Rachael Winder — Sat, 12 Feb 2011 11:41:38 GMT

I've had very varied experiences with the police in these sorts of situations. If you're really lucky and get a dog handler the job will go off incredibly smoothly with minimal fuss, risk etc. Unfortunately in many cases the only copper who can be "spared" is a junior PC who will inevitably insist on putting on rubber gloves before even appoaching the animal (apparently the disease risk is much greater than the wounding risk...).

Re: Do you think I'll get struck off for refusing a house call?

Andrew Mellor — Sat, 12 Feb 2011 11:22:12 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]

[/quote]

I have been out to a gsd cornered by police after mawling a child, they had decided to tazzer it and that just really pi***d it off, did not drop to the floor or anything just got more aggressive , this happened on another occasion also and tazzer had no effect again so I would suggest not to tazzer dogs as just seems to make my job harder !

Re: Do you think I'll get struck off for refusing a house call?

Bob Russell — Sat, 12 Feb 2011 10:53:22 GMT

All practices should have a good quality dog catcher, cat net etc. What would you do if a suspected rabies case came in? I agree first vet was foolish, reckless etc.

Do I hear people heading out to the back of the practice to try and find the dog catcher so they can check it is in full working order? I hope so!!!

Re: Do you think I'll get struck off for refusing a house call?

Clive Ansell — Sat, 12 Feb 2011 10:43:37 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]

[/quote]

Re: Do you think I'll get struck off for refusing a house call?

Bob Russell — Sat, 12 Feb 2011 10:26:27 GMT

I would expect all of us to be able to deal with a crazed 'sprocker' . If not, worth getting the practice because a basic animal management skill! A giant killing machine such as a nasty Rottie or Mastiff perhaps self-preservation may be more of an issue.

A dog catcher is not a pleasant thing to use but in capable hands will keep the sharp end away from you long enough to get i/p blue juice if necessary.

Not IMO an emergency night visit job as can wait until the morning.

If this one goes to a 'behaviourist' best of luck to him or her! I suspect they will not be able to sort out this case successfully.

Re: Do you think I'll get struck off for refusing a house call?

Wren — Sat, 12 Feb 2011 10:11:37 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]

[/quote]

I might have garbled my account somewhat, but that's exactly what I did say. Happy to visit for the strongly-advised euthanasia. Not happy to visit to remove dog so that I could drive it back to our surgery and babysit it all night.

Re: Do you think I'll get struck off for refusing a house call?

Julian Earl — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 21:17:21 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]

I saw client recently who had bought her two new pups in for 1st vaccs. They were also JRT x Pugs and had been registered as 'Jug' breed on her instructions.

It was only afterwards that I realised that my cheery greeting of ' Good morning madam, that's a lovely pair of jugs you have there' might have got me into trouble.... !

[/quote]

Genuine "Laugh Out Loud" for that one!

Anyway, is it not possible to sedate the dog via food, or just use a dog-catcher?

On balance, I think I'm with Jonathan on this, up to a point. Probably the 60kg Rottweiler point actually, but I think there is a case for laying the law down and saying that you will come to euthanase and nothing else. I am not sure why the police should be involved anyway - unless to shoot a dog in a living room? Surely the police would just request a vet come anyway?

Re: Do you think I'll get struck off for refusing a house call?

bob lehner — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 19:14:14 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

I once looked totally blank (luckily the owner couldn't see my face ) when I answered the phone to be told "I've just bought a jug " It turned out they wanted to book a JRTXPug puppy in for it's vaccinations !!!!!!!!!!!

Wynne

[/quote]

I saw client recently who had bought her two new pups in for 1st vaccs. They were also JRT x Pugs and had been registered as 'Jug' breed on her instructions.

It was only afterwards that I realised that my cheery greeting of ' Good morning madam, that's a lovely pair of jugs you have there' might have got me into trouble.... !

Re: Do you think I'll get struck off for refusing a house call?

Laurence Webb — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 18:55:50 GMT

[quote user="Jonathan Wray"]

PS I've just had a request from a client to take the amputated limb from her cat home and bury it. She intends to bury it in the grave designated in the future for the cat. They will be reunited in death, because as she said "What would be the point otherwise?"

[/quote]

It's an armless request.

Re: Do you think I'll get struck off for refusing a house call?

J G Wray — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 16:49:34 GMT

[quote user="fluffygirl"] Think I'd rather have a complaint made about me to the RCVS than my arm bitten off.[/quote]

Dear Ms fluffygirl,

I have a mental picture of a fluffy girl with her arm bitten off by a Cocker cross - was this your intention or a touch of hyperbole?

I feel an anecdote coming upon me.

JGW

Re: Do you think I'll get struck off for refusing a house call?

Derek Copeland — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 16:30:09 GMT

[quote user="jewel1973"]

can't she turn the gas off at the mains- there is normally a tap adjacent to the meter?

[/quote]

oportunity missed i fear!

As above then flame goes out ,turn tap back on job sorted.

But maybe not health and saftey and all that

Re: Do you think I'll get struck off for refusing a house call?

fluffygirl — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 15:58:16 GMT

[quote user="Jonathan Wray"]

[quote user="Wren"]So is there anyone out there who'll form a defensive wall in front of me when the PCC come to take me away?[/quote]

Why would the Press Complaints Commission take you away?

NOw that you've made your recommendation to your client and recorded it, this being a fraught situation without likely simple resolve, what are you going to do if called to the house this morning because the owner cannot feed the dog and welfare becomes a problem? Are you going to passs it on to another vet?

Limiting your responsibility is one thing, but abrogating it completely is another. The owner is empowered to make decisons. You are a vet qualified to carry them out. If I were a vet in another practice who got involved in this dog's euthanasia andlearnt of your "limiting of responsibility" I might just be moved to put that complaint in to the RCVS.

I think you need to be more active about this. This am you should be finding out what has been decided and get involved. I have a long and tiresome anecdote about this situation down to the detail of the front room from 1983.

JGW

[/quote]

Think I'd rather have a complaint made about me to the RCVS than my arm bitten off.

Re: Do you think I'll get struck off for refusing a house call?

Cat Henstridge — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 15:40:36 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]If you reply 'ah, just a mongrel then' it really gets them going [/quote]

I certainly wouldn't have agreed to go and probably not to PTS either, unless as Clive says the owner could adequately restrain the dog so it was safe to handle. If police won't go near dangerous dogs without dart guns and actual guns, why should we?

Re: Do you think I'll get struck off for refusing a house call?

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 13:33:08 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]

Actually I find it hard tobelieve that I've just typed the word 'Sprocker'. Springer/Cocker cross is more my style.

[/quote]

If you reply 'ah, just a mongrel then' it really gets them going

Re: Do you think I'll get struck off for refusing a house call?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 13:05:22 GMT

More my style as well !!!!!!

Wynne

Re: Do you think I'll get struck off for refusing a house call?

Wren — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 12:57:10 GMT

Actually I find it hard tobelieve that I've just typed the word 'Sprocker'. Springer/Cocker cross is more my style.

Re: Do you think I'll get struck off for refusing a house call?

Wren — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 12:54:51 GMT

a 'Sprocker'. Our practice records have it at about 18kg so size not an issue.

Re: Do you think I'll get struck off for refusing a house call?

Clive Ansell — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 10:34:24 GMT

I would have declined this house call too. Firstly, it is not really a veterinary issue the dog was/is not ill or injured and is not in need of veterinary care unless PTS is requested. Secondly, it is a safety issue and I would not be happy putting any other staff member or myself at risk of injury. I would be happy to attend for PTS, but would expect the owner to bring it under control and place a muzzle, if not then I may tackle a smaller dog given the appropriate protective clothing and necessary equipment, but if not it is a job for a dart gun or a local police armed response team.

what breed of dog is it? I would attend to PTS a smaller breed that is maybe already in a cage, but if it is a 60Kg out of control Rottweiler then no chance!

Re: Do you think I'll get struck off for refusing a house call?

Laurence Webb — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 09:34:10 GMT

I suspect you'll be getting a phone call at some point asking you to put it to sleep when she fails to find anyone who'll talke on a ticking time bomb. Might be an idea to plan what you're going to do when that happens. If it's in a cage then you should be able to get a sedative into it somehow before having to handle it.

Re: Do you think I'll get struck off for refusing a house call?

Wren — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 09:01:53 GMT

I've just spoken to her and she was very grateful for my help. She uses a dog walker and has got the dog walker to come round and put the dog in a cage for the time being. That bit's all fine. What's not fine is that she's spending the morning ringing round top see if she can rehome the dog. . I think I'm speechless!

Re: Do you think I'll get struck off for refusing a house call?

Wren — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 08:55:19 GMT

I'd actually have been quite happy to go and put the dog down as I could take the dog catcher etc. and euth it on the spot. What I wasn't happy to do was transport it in my car (if I'd had a van where I could have shut it away I might have been keener) or leave it in our kennels and expect our nurses to deal with it in the morning. I have no qualms about leaving it foodless overnight (it had access to water apparently) as we regualrly recommend pre-op overnight starving. Plenty of dogs go 24hrs between meals after all!

I also wasn't keen to take responsibility for (ie. admit to our kennels) an animal which had put the owner in hospital then release it to a third party or back to the owner knowing that it was dangerous. I think this would have been negligent of me.

I shall be ringing her shortly to find out the outcome and whether anyone actually is taking the dog away today and will make sure I leave full details on her records.

Re: Do you think I'll get struck off for refusing a house call?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 08:50:17 GMT

I would defend you-and I'm normally the one who says we SHOULD do house calls-but that doesn't mean committing suicide !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Record all details, and 1st thing this morning-if you've picked upthis e-mail,phone the owner,and have it on record that you have advised euthanasia, and the police marksman/ authorized dart gun holder is the correct person to dealwith it

Wynne

Re: Do you think I'll get struck off for refusing a house call?

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 08:04:26 GMT

Do tell!