Please help, dismissal with no warning, no notice, nothing

Re: Please help, dismissal with no warning, no notice, nothing

Louise Cole — Sat, 05 Mar 2011 15:30:00 GMT

[quote user="Peter Ding"]

One wonders how many potentially reasonably suitable employees have ended up leaving their employ recently as a result of the huge fees agencies now charge.

[/quote]

we recently advertised for a new vet and my boss didn't even interview the applicants who came in via agencies as the finder's fee was too high - if they'd applied independently, I'm sure he would have interviewed them, as they looked ideal candidates....

Good luck An On - I did locum work for around 5 years, never struggled to get work, and always had accommodation provided. I hope you find someone who will appreciate you v soon!!

Lou

Re: Please help, dismissal with no warning, no notice, nothing

salome2001 — Fri, 04 Mar 2011 22:14:33 GMT

just wanted to second Bob Russell's suggestion about checking your household insurance for "free legal cover" included. I used the cover with my Endsleigh policy to find out about a "b*st*ard employer" situation and they were great, especially as it was free. CAB were useless- couldn't ever even get hold of them!!! Stuff like notice periods and entitlements are not veterinary-specific.

Re: Please help, dismissal with no warning, no notice, nothing

rjhvet — Fri, 04 Mar 2011 21:13:51 GMT

Hi,

As you were in probationary period you can be asked to leave for any / no reason. The terms of your notice ( including that during the probationary period) should be stated in your terms of employment or formal offer of employment.

For example we might have a notice period during the probationary period of 1 week from either party, this can vary however. Note also if the required notice from your employer was 1 week, but the employer wished you to leave immediately and not return this is allowed but you are entitled to the monies due for 1 weeks notice.

You need to check exactly what was stated on your employment offer.

Re: Please help, dismissal with no warning, no notice, nothing

Peter Ding — Thu, 03 Mar 2011 12:20:26 GMT

One wonders how many potentially reasonably suitable employees have ended up leaving their employ recently as a result of the huge fees agencies now charge. One also wonders whether some larger employers have worked out whether two months employment and a months notice, is significantly cheaper than a three month locum.

Re: Please help, dismissal with no warning, no notice, nothing

Gerry Henry — Wed, 02 Mar 2011 13:56:02 GMT

Sorry to be so late in coming in here but have you contacted Cath Goldie, ex PDSA vet who knows what its like to be on the wrong end of an unfair dismissal claim; think she's on the RCVS council, try her.

Re: Please help, dismissal with no warning, no notice, nothing

Edward Jones — Mon, 21 Feb 2011 17:04:45 GMT

Just because the OP hasn't been with the employer for very long doesn't mean he/she hasn't been severely damaged, and it doesn't mean that the employer shouldn't follow due process.

You don't necessarily need CAB or a solicitor, you can represent yourself at employment tribunal. Spend some time looking at http://www.employmenttribunals.gov.uk/ and call Employment Tribunals public enquiry line (08457 959 775) or ACAS helpline (08457 474747).

The first thing I would do is put the grievances in writing to the employer, essentially outlining how you've been dealt with unfairly ("I had no warning from you that there was a problem" for example).

Re: Please help, dismissal with no warning, no notice, nothing

Vikki Halliday LLB — Mon, 14 Feb 2011 11:46:13 GMT

An on MRCVS,

I've been there, worked for a horrible pharma company who fired me with no warning when I was pregnant, which did end up at a tribunal, but thankfully I was a Prospect member as I had been since my Government days.

That was well within a year, and although the unfair dismissal does not kick in until 12 months, we took the case on the grounds of sexual discrimination due to my pregnancy.

After that I locummed then ended up at a small animal practice, who made me "redundant", with no warning in the 11th month of my employment, so again unfair dismissal woudl not have applied.

The best advice I can give you is seek advice from ACAS. If you are going to go down the tribunal route, you will have to go through a process of negotiation with ACAS before the tribunal would be heard. It costs a lot of money as you will have to employ a solicitor to act for you, and you anre never guaranteed any outcome, regardless of the strength of your case, as it all depends on how the tribunal panel see things on the day. However, evidence of shoddy HR practices by your ex employer would give a general impression to the tribunal that if they were not prepared to do things correctly from day 1 of employment, they are less likely to follow protocol in terminating your employment.

The harsh reality remains that because of the 12 month rule, there are a lot of people like you who will be dismissed within 12 months, and there is very little that you can do about it as a tribunal will not normally even look at a case within the first year of employment.

You can raise a grievance, however that may not work as it ususally has to be done within a period before employment ends, or within a very short period afterwards. However it would go to show that you have followed what you understand to be proper procedure.

However you are unlikely to get anywhere, and you may be best shelving your anger, and direct your attention to finding some locum work in the interim period. Sorry it's probably not what you want to hear, but that's advice from one who has been there.

Re: Please help, dismissal with no warning, no notice, nothing

HMC — Sun, 13 Feb 2011 15:44:33 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]b) three other ex employees came and joined me in what became a sort of class action.[/quote]

Oops, I was getting confused with the different stories

Re: Please help, dismissal with no warning, no notice, nothing

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 12 Feb 2011 08:24:26 GMT

Hannah Chilton I can't find any reference to anyone else being dismissed, other than in your posting-are you sure you've got this right ?

Gillian Like you, I think we don't have enough information to judge-other than the basic legal facts-that it is the employers right to dismiss after 2 months, that due to the short period of employment it could only legally be an unfair dismissal if religious,racial or sexual discrimination was involved, but that the employer still has to observe the law with regard to notice, or pay in lieu, but that legally matters such as relocation costs, and difficulty of finding local employment wouuld be considered irrelevant

Wynne

Re: Please help, dismissal with no warning, no notice, nothing

Cat Henstridge — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 22:20:14 GMT

My apologies Gillian, obviously I got the wrong end of the stick!

Re: Please help, dismissal with no warning, no notice, nothing

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 20:03:21 GMT

[quote user="Cat Henstridge"]I think that is a little bit harsh Gillian. [/quote]

eh? I wasn't being harsh at all - the question was exactly what it was - a question! I am sorry if it came across that I was judging the situation - I wasn't. And without knowing anything about it, I wouldn't.

[quote user="Cat Henstridge"]I know you are coming at this from the point of view of an employer[/quote]

I have been an employee, and not too long ago!

Re: Please help, dismissal with no warning, no notice, nothing

Cat Henstridge — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 18:41:19 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="An On MRCVS"] I went to the CAB today, weren't much help AT ALL. [/quote]

Do you mean that it was difficult to actually get advice, or that you have found out that you are unlikely to be successful?

[/quote]

I think that is a little bit harsh Gillian. I know you are coming at this from the point of view of an employer rather than an employee but Anon does appear distressed by this and has been dumped in a difficult situation by their employer, who should be brought to book for this action. There are some very poor employers out there who behave badly and it is important for the employee to explore their options rather than just walking away and shouldering the burden themselves, otherwise thees bosses will never change!

Re: Please help, dismissal with no warning, no notice, nothing

Bob Russell — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 11:28:23 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]Where I am just now, it is VERY hard to get a SA vet job, they are few and far between and those that do get advertised have loads of applicants.[/quote]

I totally see why you post anonymously, but do you think 'coming out' might let someone help you find another job? There are lots of people here who might be looking for an assistant or locum depending on the area you are?

[/quote]

Agree!

Re: Please help, dismissal with no warning, no notice, nothing

Bob Russell — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 11:15:07 GMT

Unfortunately CAB try to be helpful but are often not that helpful. The staff may not that wonderfully well trained especially at some of the smaller offices. Try a solicitor or BVA legal helpline or check your household insurance policy as legal insurance may be included. If not check all your other insurances as some have this cover bolted on.

Re: Please help, dismissal with no warning, no notice, nothing

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 10 Feb 2011 23:20:41 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"] I went to the CAB today, weren't much help AT ALL. [/quote]

Do you mean that it was difficult to actually get advice, or that you have found out that you are unlikely to be successful?

As I said, I am sure you are entitled to notice, or payment in lieu, but the length depends on your contract or pay day. Otherwise I doubt you have much to fight...

Re: Please help, dismissal with no warning, no notice, nothing

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 10 Feb 2011 23:17:14 GMT

JGW

Thank-you for your concern - I am touched.

I wouldn't be fair to her to go into details (although as a unqualified member of staff she would be unlikely ever to know...) but I am confident the situation was handled appropriately.

Re: Please help, dismissal with no warning, no notice, nothing

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 10 Feb 2011 22:54:54 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]Where I am just now, it is VERY hard to get a SA vet job, they are few and far between and those that do get advertised have loads of applicants.[/quote]

Re: Please help, dismissal with no warning, no notice, nothing

An On MRCVS — Thu, 10 Feb 2011 19:06:12 GMT

Thanks for more help. I went to the CAB today, weren't much help AT ALL. I'm phoning up recruitment agencies etc. All very stressfull.

I am 5 years qualified and I don't have much money, why is that hard to understand? All the savings I had (not much ) went into a deposit for a house with my sister ( over 300 miles away) and I haven't been on that high a salary to start to recoup my savings again. I moved a wee bit to get this job and have taken on a new flat to rent so I can't just up and leave to move elsewhere in the country when I have 3-4 months left on this lease, have no money to move anyway and my other half and family all live nearby too. Where I am just now, it is VERY hard to get a SA vet job, they are few and far between and those that do get advertised have loads of applicants. Hence why I am looking down the locum route.

Will phone ACAS and prob BVA tomorrow for more advice but not looking too hopeful for anything at the moment. Oh well.

Re: Please help, dismissal with no warning, no notice, nothing

J G Wray — Thu, 10 Feb 2011 17:11:40 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]I had the horrible situation of firing someone this week. They had worked for me for just over 6 months and there was no misconduct or disciplinary issue - she just wasn't up to the job. She would be likely to say the same as you - that we didn't give her a formal warning as such. The difficulty is that I could give a hundred small reasons for her lack of aptitude, but no one big reason! We just felt that she wasn't up to the job[/quote]

Dear Mrs Mostyn,

Have you assiduosly documented your actions, including any evidence from employment reviews?

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]If I'm wrong then I'll wait for the court letter[/quote]

Do you have any kind of HR support? There are a number of firms out there. If you use Sage for accounting, then why not start with their HR package? Your insurance broker may also have sold you legal insurance should it all go sideways, but this won't (usually) pay any fines

JGW

Re: Please help, dismissal with no warning, no notice, nothing

J G Wray — Thu, 10 Feb 2011 17:03:25 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Strongly caution against naming and shaming. Aside from the fact that there are invariably two sides, [/quote]

And we're getting one. I have only once had to issue a formal written warning to a 3 year qualified vet because of their professional activities. This came after two verbal warnings and a discussion at a review mind.

As for Anon, I'm still mulling over the 5 years qualified and impecunious thing.The VR VT and this site are packed with jobs for experienced vets.

Unpleasantness and hard luck aside the best afvice gven to Anon so far is to take a deep breath and speak to BVA legal helpline. This is run by Unison and they know a thing or two about employment law. The experts know best.

JGW

Re: Please help, dismissal with no warning, no notice, nothing

HMC — Thu, 10 Feb 2011 15:49:11 GMT

Just a word of encouragement:

don't let the b*st*rds get you down. She sounds like a difficult person; it is not necessarily a reflexion on you (especially with other people being dismissed too!).

Re: Please help, dismissal with no warning, no notice, nothing

Bob Russell — Thu, 10 Feb 2011 13:08:35 GMT

I suspect the real problem is the recruitment agency. The crazy fees charged for permanent placement are reduced if the employee does not stay in the job for more than a set period.

It would not surprise me at all if the agency had sent a bill for many £'000 and the employer was unwilling to be ripped off by the agency. This may have tainted the relationship even before starting the new job!

This may explain the lack of notice - there may be a deadline. Not a good way to behave but if we use employment agencies rather than job ads we must start getting used to this type of situation.

Re: Please help, dismissal with no warning, no notice, nothing

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 10 Feb 2011 10:54:26 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Sounds to me that there was something very fishy about the relationship between your employer and the recruitment agency[/quote]

Probably not, in my experience. The agency or the employee was represented as a round peg but sounds as if she was actually a square peg, in the opinion of the employer.

We have had vets. presented as round pegs who weren't even a peg at all...

Also it's always struck me as very unfair that an employee can just not turn up with no actual penalty at all, but when an employee is terminated all sorts of rights are retained by the ex-employee.

[/quote]

To clarify what I mean by fishy:

[quote user="An On MRCVS"] I should probably mention that there was a HUGE hoohaa initially when I was employed, it was via a big recruitment agency, long LONG story, apparently she told them to offer me the job, they did, then she said that she didnt tell them to offer me the job, withdrew her offer but NONE of this was told to me, just that I had the job. Eventually discovered 3 weeks before due to leave my old job and all hell broke loose. Basically she didnt want to pay the finders fee they wanted to charge her... It all sorted itself out but I was wary from day 1...[/quote]

Sounds to me like a row over money which hadn't actually sorted itself out.

Re: Please help, dismissal with no warning, no notice, nothing

Anthony Todd — Thu, 10 Feb 2011 10:25:37 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Sounds to me that there was something very fishy about the relationship between your employer and the recruitment agency[/quote]

Probably not, in my experience. The agency or the employee was represented as a round peg but sounds as if she was actually a square peg, in the opinion of the employer.

We have had vets. presented as round pegs who weren't even a peg at all...

Also it's always struck me as very unfair that an employee can just not turn up with no actual penalty at all, but when an employee is terminated all sorts of rights are retained by the ex-employee.

Re: Please help, dismissal with no warning, no notice, nothing

Malcolm Ness — Thu, 10 Feb 2011 09:48:56 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]All I will say is that employers are given a year to decide whether or not an employee is suitable for their organisation,and can dismiss without reason during that time-but the employer still has to obey the law with regard to written terms, and also notice, or pay in lieu of notice I'm not a lawyer, merely a reasonably well-informed lay person,so don't take it for granted I'm right, but I I would expect a tribunal to award you a month's salary-if you are paid monthly-but no more,as after only 2 months, it is the employers right to dismiss if she so wishes The costs/problems arising from relocation, are not legally your former employers problem[/quote]

That, too, is my understanding of the situation. You can certainly expect pay in lieu of notice plus payment for any holiday entitlement you have accrued. How much pay you are entitled to depends on what is in your contract or letter of appointment - if it says a 3mth notice period is required then you are entitled to 3 mths pay. If you don't have a contract or letter of appointment then I believe that the pay interval is taken - if you were paid weekly then you get a week's pay, if you were paid monthly then you are entitled to a months money.

If you are a BVA member, there is a free legal advice resource which you might want to use.