How low can you go?

Re: How low can you go?

Simon Neuhoff — Mon, 21 Feb 2011 15:19:34 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

This thread is starting to brIng the profession into disrepute!

[/quote]

Not really - it is being read only by members of the profession. Some behaviours mentioned here do bring the profession into disrepute IMO.

Re: How low can you go?

Rob Davis — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 12:27:29 GMT

I[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Fair enough, it just seems to me that comparing vets to specsavers was a little harsh somehow. :) perhaps i'm just reading too much into it.

[/quote]

I was not intending to criticise the vets working in JVPs in any way. The comparison with specsavers was very much sold as a positive model by the MD of V4P - the comparison was made by those setting it all up, not by me...

Re: How low can you go?

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 09:31:14 GMT

Fair enough, it just seems to me that comparing vets to specsavers was a little harsh somehow. :) perhaps i'm just reading too much into it.

Re: How low can you go?

Bob Russell — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 09:20:14 GMT

I don't think there has been any knocking of the vet's working at these practices. If anything I think there is a degree of sympathy. It is the business practices that cause comments and to a large extent these are not within the control of the JVP vets.

Some dubious behaviour has been seen (another post) by a minority of these practices - presumably to survive.

There may be an element of 'King Canute' to my views on these 'corporate/JVP' models but it can be difficult to survive against a Specsavers model. The clients are, I assume, happy with their £99 vaccinations, £1000 pyometras (as long as insured), the franchisor will get his pound of flesh but it will be the vet 'owner' stuck in the middle that will be under most pressure if things get difficult. The practice down the road that has been there for 50 years will probably also pay a high price.

Re: How low can you go?

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 20:59:51 GMT

I disagree. There is a lot of comment, and challenge, about the business model. From what I can see, no one has challenged the integrity of any individual veterinary surgeon?

There is one of these JVPs in my town. I may not like what they do in relation to some of their business practices, but I have a very good working relationship with the vets themselves. I also wish them well - running your own business is tough, whatever the system.

Re: How low can you go?

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 20:56:56 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]is it really different from charging £50 for a cat spay?[/quote]

You charge THAT much?

Re: How low can you go?

Mark Hedberg — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 20:55:41 GMT

This is all getting a bit ad hominem for my taste. If we show our colleagues in franchise practice no respect, why be surprised to get none in return?

We are all vets out to make a living. We're all free to increase footfall in any way we feel like, and while it's fashionable to knock £99 vaccs for life (heck, i did), is it really different from charging £50 for a cat spay?

This thread is starting to brIng the profession into disrepute!

Re: How low can you go?

Rob Davis — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 17:31:43 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]Probably more true than you think; their MD used to work for Vision Express. [/quote]

I don't think it's a coincidence that Peter Watson, MD of Vets4Pets also used to work for either Vision Express or Specsavers (I can't remember which). When I was in discussion with them, this was repeatedly touted as the model on which the veterinary JVP was based.

Re: How low can you go?

Bob Russell — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 16:57:59 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]'planning'[/quote]

A classic weasel word.

[/quote]

Indeed!

Re: How low can you go?

Bob Russell — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 16:56:49 GMT

We use a local optician. I have never been into a Specsavers.

Apparently they make almost no money on contact lenses so all the profits must come from spectacles. If they force everyone out of business they have it all to themselves! Familiar strategy? Yup!

Re: How low can you go?

Clive Ansell — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 16:21:52 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

I see Companion Care are 'planning' to double the number of surgeries in the next 3 years. Has anyone told them about static or falling pet numbers or are they only interested in new business at the expense of existing practices and the pet owning public?

I know this is a tough commercial world and competition is always around the corner but are we truly going to enter a 'Specsavers' type world or is it just going to keep pushing the price of that pyometra higher and higher as practices try to make ends meet?

[/quote]

Probably more true than you think; their MD used to work for Vision Express.

How many of us still go to a traditional practice opticians, I do. My partner recently visited Specsavers and while waiting to see the optician she was asked if she would like to choose her spectacle frame, she replied "but, I don't wear glasses". the young lady behind the counter replied that almost everyone is prescribed them here - sound familiar??

Re: How low can you go?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 15:57:06 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]'planning'[/quote]

A classic weasel word.

Re: How low can you go?

Bob Russell — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 14:14:46 GMT

Re: How low can you go?

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 14:08:37 GMT

[quote user="Rob Davis"]I see that you work for Vets4Pets. A few years ago I had long and detailed discussions with them about the possibility of setting up a practice.[/quote]

Ian and I did the same. We also didn't like their proposition at all and we decided to go it alone. Their marketing jargon was amazing though...would love to know if any of it has come true for anybody????..............

Re: How low can you go?

Bob Russell — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 13:24:30 GMT

It is interesting to see a bit of both sides of the franchise system. I cannot a significant difference between buying a franchise or JVP. A vet may own the goodwill and responsibility but will not own the building or the right to dispose of the business any way they chose. Unfortunately the agreement is always going to be a bit one sided as it is big business going into partnership with an individual or individuals! You just have to decide if it is right for you!

I keep coming back to the fact that no one is going to provide you with purpose built premises on day one without a good return on their investment.

Re: How low can you go?

Rob Davis — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 12:31:41 GMT

I see that you work for Vets4Pets. A few years ago I had long and detailed discussions with them about the possibility of setting up a practice. It was only after several meetings that they allowed me to see the contract. The document was around 2cm thick and provided pretty watertight cover for Vets4Pets should I start to do anything they were not happy with; there was no protection for me. They were keen to point out that "Joint Venture Partnerships" are not franchises, though the difference would appear to me to be in name only (one thing they are undoubtably good at is marketing!). I was shown all sorts of impressive looking graphs, telling me how quickly I would be able to repay all my loans and start making big money. They also told me how many practices they would "definitely" be opening in the following couple of years. This has subsequently been shown to be extremely optimistic. If something looks too good to be true, it probably is...

It is a valid way into some form of practice ownership, and I'm sure it does work well for some people, but I think you need to fully understand what you are getting into. I ended up going in a different direction and joining a more traditional partnership. I have had to borrow considerably more money from the bank than I would if I had joined V4P, but I feel that in the long run i will be better off for it both financially and in terms of being in control of my own destiny

Re: How low can you go?

Simon Neuhoff — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 11:40:08 GMT

[quote user="Amie Glaves"]

I can't help but think that if those 'antis' spent a week or so working in such a place you would see that we haven't sold out souls to the devil and it really isn't as bad as you think.

[/quote]

Well I spent 7 months working for a franchise - though I have never owned one. Those seven months were enough for me to realise it is not for me. I have friends who are part of that exact franchise and are mostly satisfied with it - so I believe the system does work for certain vets. Personally I think they pay too much for the service they get and the "system" is far too restrictive - but that again is my opinion.

Re: How low can you go?

Amie Glaves — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 09:31:51 GMT

From speaking to my boss, this set up is not a franchise. She bought into the umbrella of the company but owns everything. She didn't take a profit until she had paid back what she loaned (like every business). The umbrella company take a cut of the profit (not sure what amount she didn't say but I got the impression it wasn't obscene) and this is called a management fee for the business support that she gets in return. She hires who she wants when she wants and runs the practice as she see fit. She doesn't regret it and is glad she did it. We also stock what drugs we like and there is no pressure to use one over the other.

I can't help but think that if those 'antis' spent a week or so working in such a place you would see that we haven't sold out souls to the devil and it really isn't as bad as you think.

Re: How low can you go?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 18:30:46 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]A franchise holder seems (from an outsiders point of view) to have the worst of all worlds. They have the responsibilities that go with ownership without the ownership.[/quote]

That's what I've always thought - the main thing that keeps me going through the tough days is the fact that I (we) own everything lock,stock and barrel and therefore alongside the stress I also get the profit. I couldn't cope with being told what staff I can have or giving away a large chunk of that profit.

Re: How low can you go?

Bob Russell — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 10:58:13 GMT

A franchise holder seems (from an outsiders point of view) to have the worst of all worlds. They have the responsibilities that go with ownership without the ownership. Have to follow the 'party line' in order for the whole chain to appear similar to the general public.

Seven days a week opening cannot help unless you can afford extra staff (coming out of profit). Working for yourself whilst 'employed' seems a good recipe for depression.

I would welcome more comments from franchise holders because my view may be far from accurate! I may be totally wrong!

Re: How low can you go?

Cat Henstridge — Tue, 15 Feb 2011 14:00:59 GMT

I recently went to the annual congress of one of the largest vet franchises and they had a 'motivational speaker' in to give us all a lecture. Prior to him coming he had sent a questionnaire to all the JVPs about their happiness and satisfaction levels. Even he struggled to remain positive at the results! (which he said were pretty much the worst of any professionals he had surveyed) I can't remember the exact figures but I think around 70% of respondents were unhappy in some way or other on the various criteria and he felt that at least 6 or 7 (out of a total of about 70 practices) were clinically depressed!

This may not be that different from ordinary practices but given the franchises focus a lot of their marketing on how much more rewarding/enjoyable/satisfying it is to set up with them, it was an eyeopener for me!

Cat

Re: How low can you go?

Bob Russell — Tue, 15 Feb 2011 11:54:47 GMT

I wish anyone the best of luck if they are brave enough to set up a practice in any shape or form. It would be interesting to hear (even if anon) from vets in franchises as to their experiences over a longer term.

Those vets that have had troubled experiences with the franchises in the long-term do tend to stay quiet about it. If I am wrong and it is all a bed of roses then I apologise but running a practice I know how slim margins can be and paying a hefty wack to the franchisor must take the smile off your face. With a bank loan it gets paid off eventually and it is all yours but with a franchise you have a 'friend for life'!

Re: How low can you go?

Amie Glaves — Tue, 15 Feb 2011 09:47:40 GMT

All the practices around here knows what the others charge for routine stuff (boosters, neutering, flea and wormers) and prices are set accordingly (not lower). The only thing that is skimming is Vacc4Life.

Re: How low can you go?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 15 Feb 2011 09:15:36 GMT

[quote user="Amie Glaves"]I agree with a few posts that other things are more expensive. Compared to my previous practice, drug costs and lab fees are higher. This is why some clients use us for routines and go elsewhere for other things.[/quote]

If you have some knowledge of veterinary business then you will know that the routine work helps to keep the practice running day-to-day. It doesn't necessarily subsidise the practice (not enough profit for that) as much as give us our 'bread and butter' work. Don't you feel that another company skimming off this area of our work might be a little annoying?

Re: How low can you go?

Malcolm Ness — Tue, 15 Feb 2011 08:28:32 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

The large companies offering these veterinary franchises are also borrowing from the bank (some on a massive scale) so their 'pound of flesh' will be bank rate plus XX. They will also charge for the added value services they 'offer'.

This all has to come out of the profit you work so hard to generate.

[/quote]

My point exactly.

Franchises are neither cheap nor risk-free.