How much insurance do you recommend?

Re: How much insurance do you recommend?

Bob Russell — Mon, 24 Jan 2011 09:23:41 GMT

Unfortunately with any 'new' techniques or transfer of techniques between species there have to be pioneers (I would obviously include Noel Fitzpatrick within this group) and early failures will happen.

Whether the insurance companies should be funding this is a problem in itself. By definition insurance is a way of spreading costs and risks so lengthy and experimental treatments may be adding to the burdens on insurance companies leading to higher premiums.

I don't have the answer unfortunately!

Re: How much insurance do you recommend?

Malcolm Ness — Mon, 24 Jan 2011 09:11:19 GMT

I think Mark's suggestion has some merit.

Certainly, in older patients many of the more costly diagnostic adventures are more likely to satisfy the intellectual curiosity of the vet or salve the conscience of the owner than ever they will significantly improve the well-being of the patient.

My experiences with insurance are a little diferent by wit of the work I do. I tend to see tertiary referral type fracture cases - several bones in lots of pieces and these can be costly (3-4k) to sort. Additionally, I see an increasing number of younger dogs that will benefit from joint replacement - with a hip replacement currently costing 5k ( we charge a one-off fee including follow up rads and the cost of sorting any complications should they occur). Consequently, I tend to encourage folk with dogs to look for cover of 4-7k at least in the first 2-3 of years of the dog's life. Most fracture cases are seen in younger dogs and most of the joints that might benefit from joint replacement will have shown themselves by then. Our other common big bill is osteotomy treatment for cruciate failure in bigger more active dogs and the problem here is the inconsistency between (and within) insurers as to whether a second cruciate is a new condition or merely the second half of a bilateral disease.

As for castors - never found a place for them and limb prosthesis surgery is not yet, in my opinion, ready for clinical application - the problem of creating a permanent bond between limb and prosthesis has not yet been resolved and the current picture of placement followed by late loosening is inevitable. Once that problem is resolved, there is potentia for a relatively inexpensive and functionally effective salvage procedure to be developed.

Re: How much insurance do you recommend?

Mark Holmes — Fri, 21 Jan 2011 15:15:49 GMT

Just floating an idea, but, when a dog reaches an age (say 12 for a lab for example but this would be subjct to change) rather than the premium going up what about the level of cover reducing? It sounds counter intuitive but, in reducing to £2000 for example it would cover simple fractures, v and d and routine stuff, splenectomy, pyo (unless at some of the London clinics). It clearly would not cover MRI level investigations but then alot of people (myslef included) probably would not bother with this at this age. I certainly wouldn't be looking for a referral to have a set of castors fitted by an adventurous specialist for example. I cannot think of a circumstance where I would need £6000, or even £4000 in a year. Surely an affordable but reduced level of cover is more suitable to the majority of clients than an unaffordable and excessive level of cover?

Re: How much insurance do you recommend?

Laurence Webb — Fri, 21 Jan 2011 12:20:24 GMT

We're not allowed to say 'I recommend this product' or read through the small print of policies to advise owners on the suitability of insurance but, like Bob, I think you should be on sounder ground saying that your own experience has been of clients dissatisfied with E&L's service due to slow payments, contesting straightforward claims, excluding any vaguely related (or even unrelated) illnesses once a claim has been processed....(insert problem of choice)

Re: How much insurance do you recommend?

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 21 Jan 2011 11:04:12 GMT

[quote user="Louise Alexander"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

Depends if they're planning to visit Knowall Fitzpatrick for a prosthetic leg I guess.

[/quote]

Gosh Martin, that's a bit sharp!

Personal experience

When it comes to advising owners, I always say read the small print and explain the covered for life/covered up to max 1yr/£xx. I also menion that I'm with Petplan (!) and say take from that what you will. How far is too far in letting clients know who is actually good at paying up etc?

I know we're not supposed to advise clients on what insurance companies to deal with but if the words, 'in my experience company A is crap and company B has a good record', were used I cannot see a problem..

[/quote]

Re: How much insurance do you recommend?

Richard Carter — Fri, 21 Jan 2011 09:34:55 GMT

Have seen the situation Bob has mentioned where very good clients have gone with top end insurance for 3 dogs, stuck with them for years and when told the magic birthday had occurred, premiums went up to ridiculous amount with % fees not covered! Now no insurance at all just when they really could need them.

Always recommend 'life' policies, never annual

Re: How much insurance do you recommend?

Peter Ding — Fri, 21 Jan 2011 08:43:28 GMT

I find one or two insurance anecdotes work best in directing clients to chose an appropriate policy. I expect most vets have some good ones and bad ones. As well as the obvious stuff re. around 25% of older pet claims are for dentals etc

We don't charge for filling in claims forms, but we do for subsequent query answering in writing or for providing further history details.

One of my nurses spends about 25% of her time filling in claims forms so i consider that a big enough investment by the practice. Recording how often other companies (than Petplan) demand such extra information and indicating resultant fees are not recoverable helps direct clients towards a policy we can both work with.

IMHO it is well worth the effort. I would beg to differ from the opinion above. Some policies are really not worth having! There is nothing worse than thinking you are covered when you are not!

Even barbed-wire tear wounds have been rejected. "Your dog should not be off the lead on farmland - contributory negligence on your part" or "Your cat had a bad abscess last year, we advised you then that his fighting would henceforth be considered a behavioural problem, not covered under your policy" Both claims were for less than £50 over the excess!

I've also had a claim rejected for an MRI/CT scan that all concerned considered justified, but because no pathology or condition was diagonsed was rejected despite our protestations.

Re: How much insurance do you recommend?

vs0u — Fri, 21 Jan 2011 01:15:21 GMT

I always tell them not to go with E and L - don't see why I can't when I know for a fact they take months to pay out, if ever, and exclude virtually everything.

Other than that I just say be aware of what you are getting, check the excess, and that the more expensive policies tend to pay out more.

The level of OOH cover is another thing that some insurers are starting to clamp down on - Direct Line for example (wouldn't actually say that to a client though)

Re: How much insurance do you recommend?

Louise6732 — Thu, 20 Jan 2011 19:43:08 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

Depends if they're planning to visit Knowall Fitzpatrick for a prosthetic leg I guess.

[/quote]

Gosh Martin, that's a bit sharp!

My cat is insured with PetPlan, £11/month for about £6000 per year cover (this is the 'platinum' poliy or something!) He's only 2 but has been diagnosed with renal insufficiency, they're happy to pay for blood samples monitoring etc but don't cover renal food. Damn.

I'm a very neurotic owner when it comes to my animals (I'd hate to have me as a clent!) so I have this cover for things which I won't be able to fix etc like orthopaedics.

Whe it comes to advising owners, I always say read the small print and explain the covered for life/covered up to max 1yr/£xx. I also menion that I'm with Petplan (!) and say take from that what you will. How far is too far in letting clients know who is actually good at paying up etc?

Louise

Re: How much insurance do you recommend?

Rob Loxley — Thu, 20 Jan 2011 18:50:12 GMT

[quote user="Jacquin Mitchell"]I'm thinking at least £4K for a cat, £6K for a dog for a lifetime policy[/quote]

The maximum benefit policies (as opposed to 12 month limit or annually renewed limit) can sound like a large amount of money, but a £6000 pot (e.g. DirectLine) over 12 years of life is only £500/yr. Now say an animal develops atopy or diabetes or joint disease at an early age you can quickly eat this up (very quickly if you go on Atopica as I'm sure some clients have found out when the pot runs out...).

I think the biggest thing is for us to explain the different types of policy, the pitfalls to look out for (e.g. E&L £5000/yr cover but only £1000 per condition; or % excesses; getting a Petplan Value policy but not realising it only covers 12months), and a few different scenarios for the owners to consider (short term vs. longterm illnesses; expensive referral/cutting edge surgery) so that they can make an informed decision.

Re: How much insurance do you recommend?

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 20 Jan 2011 18:20:28 GMT

[quote user="Jacquin Mitchell"]

I know we can't really tell clients 'which' insurance to use but I've been asked 'How much' to get a lot lately.

I'm thinking at least £4K for a cat, £6K for a dog for a lifetime policy. What do others recommend?

Jacq

[/quote]

Depends if they're planning to visit Knowall Fitzpatrick for a prosthetic leg I guess.

Re: How much insurance do you recommend?

Mark Hedberg — Thu, 20 Jan 2011 17:46:31 GMT

I think it would be interesting to have a CPD talk on "Insurance: What are we allowed to recommend to clients?" I think we'd be able to better advise clients with this info. On the other hand, would we need to be registered with FSA, if all we're giving is advice and not actually selling insurance?

Re: How much insurance do you recommend?

Glen McIntosh — Thu, 20 Jan 2011 15:18:24 GMT

Too much insurance is barely enough.

Re: How much insurance do you recommend?

Mark Holmes — Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:31:11 GMT

I always say that YOU need to be happy with your level of cover as different people require different things from it. (to cover my *rse) Then I go on to say that 4000 covered for life is in my opinion better than a higher amount say £6000 for 12 months but thats just my opinion. £4000 basic cover will get you a reasonable amount of basic level care but will not cover anything cutting edge and may need topping up in some circumstances. If you are not in a position to top up or would be interested in referral and specialist treatment then you may want more. There is no point in being over-insured. If you have a geriatric dog with a bunch of ongoing issues and would not be interested in major work then there is no point in being insured for £6000. For example my dog is 10 and she is part crippled with arthritis despite a whole bunch of meds. I would happily spend a few hundred quid sorting out something simple but if she ever gets anything which would amount to more than that then the black rabbit will be coming!

Re: How much insurance do you recommend?

Bob Russell — Thu, 20 Jan 2011 12:47:29 GMT

As much as possible! Not such a flippant comment as it seems!

Owners need to decide how much they are willing to spend and how much they would be able to contribute if needed.

I always suggest a quote from Petplan in all cases for comparison. £4000 for a cat and £6000 for a dog should cover the vast majority of cases but a nasty degloving injury with #'s requiring skin grafts could go much higher than this at a referral centre.

Many people will be happier paying for a more basic level of cover and accept that it covers most things and take much of the sting out of a big referral claim. I think a lot more continue to insure with this approach. It is what I do with my animals.

I find that the all singing all dancing high level policies have a high 'drop out rate' compared to the Tesco type policies. Any insurance is better than no insurance. I am happy to tell clients that I have a relatively cheap policy (Tesco!!) with a high excess that will pay out £4500 so may need quite a lot of topping up if something major happens. Total peace of mind will cost more. Try not to get snooty about cheaper policies (except E+L of course).

I pay about £15 per dog per month even though two of them are 9 years old now. I am mean and will not pay £30+ for Petplan nor will a significant proportion of my clients.

We have a high level of insured patients and by advising on the different approaches most seem to continue with it. It is all well and good to get an animal insured, it is making sure it continues to be insured that really counts!

We do warn that the so called 'value' policies are not necessarily good value!

Cheap and cheerful but be prepared to fork out to top up - owners tend to stick with these. Expensive but comprehensive policies that cover pretty much everything but have a higher attrition rate.