When abuse gets personal

Re: When abuse gets personal

Martin Jones — Wed, 19 Jan 2011 12:34:17 GMT

Sorry, Arlo - not meaning to suggest that you're the veterinary Wikileaks. It's more that the people who would be investigating complaints made against the profession may well be members of this site. JGW obviously understands the way the PIC and evidence work.

Re: When abuse gets personal

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 19 Jan 2011 10:06:36 GMT

[quote user="Jonathan Wray"]You have correctly emphasised how public this forum is. It is no doubt leaky and that is plainly a message for all.[/quote]

I'm not sure how much I like being described as 'leaky'.

I think it's important to say that ALL internet forums, not just VetSurgeon, should be assumed to be public domain, unless they only have a handful of members who all know each other. Even that doesn't completely eliminate the risk of your words being read by the wrong person. Passwords can be cracked, or more likely, 'borrowed'. People forget to logout from forums on shared computers (so the next user can see what was written).

I'm quite sure JGW knew what he was doing when he posted the details above

Re: When abuse gets personal

J G Wray — Tue, 18 Jan 2011 22:23:25 GMT

[quote user="Martin Jones"]Not wishing to be flippant or inflammatory, Mr Wray, but I fear you may have just posted a record of your actions in an open forum, to which all veterinary members of the PIC have access. On the other hand, I still don't believe that you have done anything which would warrant an investigation, even in the face of a complaint. A refusal to respond to a complaint would, though, be inadvisable as I understand that this is actionable by the PIC.[/quote]

I take your caution as well meant. You have correctly emphasised how public this forum is. It is no doubt leaky and that is plainly a message for all.

As for the PIC people having access to this then will have learned more here than I would be prepared to disclose if they considered a complaint.

The PIC does not produce alegal judgement. It is , by definition, a Preliminary to the Disciplinary Process. They would not proceed in the absence of information or evidence. I've no doubt they'd be miffed in the absence of explicit cooperation, but keeping my trap shut would safeguard the mother's interests as well as my own. The PI process is confidential and hidden from those outside the complaint, but not to those within.

I hope there is nothing further with this case, but the daughter is still a bit of a wildcard. We shall see.

Thank you for all opinions and particularly for the more practical stuff.

end

JGW

Re: When abuse gets personal

Niall Taylor — Tue, 18 Jan 2011 22:14:13 GMT

[quote user="Martin Jones"]I fear you may have just posted a record of your actions in an open forum, to which all veterinary members of the PIC have access[/quote]

That thought occured to me.

[quote user="Martin Jones"]I still don't believe that you have done anything which would warrant an investigation, even in the face of a complaint[/quote]

That too - you have done absolutely nothing wrong Mr Wray.

Niall

Re: When abuse gets personal

Martin Jones — Tue, 18 Jan 2011 20:35:49 GMT

[quote user="Jonathan Wray"]

So, no records in these circumstances.

[/quote]

Not wishing to be flippant or inflammatory, Mr Wray, but I fear you may have just posted a record of your actions in an open forum, to which all veterinary members of the PIC have access. On the other hand, I still don't believe that you have done anything which would warrant an investigation, even in the face of a complaint. A refusal to respond to a complaint would, though, be inadvisable as I understand that this is actionable by the PIC.

The police have exercised their duties well - if the daughter does attack again, then the police will have it on file that they told her not to, which will cover their @rses nicely. Any lack of protection to the mother is an unfortunate but unavoidable side-effect of the decision to make a warning. And they have identified an alleged theft as a civil matter, which means that the daughter would have to fork out considerable sums for a civil action which would be unlikely to return costs or animal, even if it were easily enforceable. Civil offences are, by definition, not crimes and so the home secretary need not be bothered with data.

Bet it doesn't go any further, though.

Re: When abuse gets personal

Bob Russell — Tue, 18 Jan 2011 16:40:05 GMT

Abusers can be amazingly contrite and compliant when it suits them. It is all part of the 'control' process. It is rarely meant it seems and the bad behaviour rapidly returns in most/a lot of cases.

The 'good' behaviour is there to keep the abused held within the net.

Sad how some humans behave!

Much as I hate to say it try not to get so deeply involved that you become so entangled that it is difficult to get away from it!

Sadly the abused often has to be pushed so far that they finally accept the reality of the situation and finally realise that the abuser is unlikely to change. That is the point where they can escape!

Re: When abuse gets personal

Kate Richardson — Tue, 18 Jan 2011 15:54:16 GMT

Hear hear

Re: When abuse gets personal

Vikki Halliday LLB — Tue, 18 Jan 2011 15:52:46 GMT

Well, well done for trying what you have.

Re: When abuse gets personal

J G Wray — Tue, 18 Jan 2011 15:47:36 GMT

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[quote user="Vikki Halliday"]A written record to acknowledge you have acted can be kept, and if you like a call to the RCVS, but I'd like to think you will do something Mr Wray, sooner rather than later. To me this is crucial as an upstanding citizen, professional obligations come secondary I feel.[/quote]

An update

The daughter has made further threats toward mother and the other dogs in the household. The police have been called and the daughter - over 18 - has been told to leave by the police and mother. It remains to be seen how effective this will be, particularly if the daughter is plausibly contrite at some point in the future

Our actions - Either I or a member of our am reception staff have phoned mother daily to find out how she is. We have accumulated the contacts from this site and local resources in respect of shelters and advice about abuse. This has been aggregated in one place away from the clinical records. The mother has shown her willingness to accept these contacts

In the practice the case has become universal knowledge. This is because mother walked in to an am surgery last week and started transmitting in front of staff and clients. We had no option to take her to a quiet room.

We have discussed our actions amongst ourselves. This is not a time to be directive as a boss, because plainly neither I nor any staff member has a depth of experience in these matters. The single mothers and divorcees have experience of abuse, but not like this.

We have all agreed that we know we are getting a version of events from the mother and that this should be our caution. We have all acknowledged that we are veterinary professionals, not counsellors, in other words we are limited in what we should do, to avoid becoming interfering busy bodies and create a dependency from the owner.

I have taken informal legal advice on our exposure and mine in particular, when we received a contact from the owner, the daughter, who gave us a version of events at odds with her mother’s. The daughter wanted to know if we would give her RSPCA numbers and confirm I had examined the puppy a couple of weeks ago and no signs of abuse were present. We gave her the RSPCA number and agreed we could confirm that no signs of abuse were present at that time. She does not know about my/our actions in respect of facilitating the removal of the puppy and subsequent support of her mother - probably. I believe she is cunning and plausible to third parties and may yet, when our role comes out, create some difficulties. We shall see.

We have also discussed how best to protect ourselves from accusations of assisting a theft. No records of what we have said or done have been kept on clinical records. This is our reasoning:

1. The police are currently uninterested in the removal of the puppy and are more concerned about protecting the mother. We don’t even figure. According to the mother, today, the daughter has been told bluntly to sue her mother for the value of the puppy if she wants to. This is a version again, but we have no need of records to assist this action.

2. If the daughter complains to RCVS about us assisting theft, the RCVS will be bound to investigate the complaint. The RCVS initial complaints process is not confidential between the two parties and if records existed of discussion between ourselves and her mother, they would be disclosed to the daughter, the complainant. The mother’s circumstances and predicament would not be taken into account. The RCVS loves records and would not be able to proceed in the absence of records. They would be mightily miffed to receive an answer from me politely declining to respond to the complaint, but in the absence of records, proof, the daughter complaint and allegations would remain just that. The mother’s best interests would be served. The RCVS would puff and blow about not being told why, but would have to leave the case open and unresolved.

So, no records in these circumstances.

JGW

Re: When abuse gets personal

Vikki Halliday LLB — Fri, 14 Jan 2011 19:23:10 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] I think a lot of the problem is the mother's maternal feelings are preventing her from turning the daughter out-and the daughter,lacking any decent feelings of her own is trading on it-horrible situation, but I think the police need to be involved[/quote]

Couldn't aqree more Wynne, one of my thoughts as a mother myself was "what would I do if I were put in this situation?". It takes a strong mother to report their own child, particularly if that child is using psychological tactics akin to wife beating.

I'd use the Crimestoppers number if you are concerned about inaction, but also about retribution. You have already stated that there is at least one other person who is aware of the situation, and that can mean the perpetrator cannot be certain who makes the complaint.

This misguided youth could well turn into a mother herself, and one wonders if there could be a potential for a "Baby P " episode as a result.

A written record to acknowledge you have acted can be kept, and if you like a call to the RCVS, but I'd like to think you will do something Mr Wray, sooner rather than later. To me this is crucial as an upstanding citizen, professional obligations come secondary I feel.

Vikki

Re: When abuse gets personal

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 14 Jan 2011 18:20:38 GMT

I can't really add anything to what everyone else has said My moral priority would be to protect the innocent-this puppy,the other animals in the household, and, of course, the mother This necessity to jump through hoops in order to break client confidentiality, even when the client is a criminal is one of my main criticisms of RCVS In this case I think a lot of the problem is the mother's maternal feelings are preventing her from turning the daughter out-and the daughter,lacking any decent feelings of her own is trading on it-horrible situation, but I think the police need to be involved-if RCVS get nasty, then I doubt if they would dare go further than reprimand you, as the publicity would be appalling, when you were attempting to protect the innocent

Hope it all works out

Wynne

Re: When abuse gets personal

Martin Jones — Fri, 14 Jan 2011 15:57:12 GMT

VDS?

Re: When abuse gets personal

J G Wray — Fri, 14 Jan 2011 15:46:42 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]Surely (bearing in mind the comments about amateur legal advice) there is no way you could be held to be complicit in dog-napping or assault merely by providing information with good intentions in an attempt to help the situation.[/quote]

Dear Mr Taylor,

I'm clear I'm not associated with an assault against dog or owner. But, I was consulted professionally and advice and information was given in an informal manner in addition. As for good intentions, we both know the Road to Hell is paved with Good Intentions.

Having good intent or doing something out of a sense of "duty" may seen right but can have unforessen consequences. I'm asking how others who have dealt with these circumstances managed and what the general feeling is

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]But probably you do need to take some proper legal advice before saying anything to any one. From what the client has said about this daughter she will almost certainly have a social worker already and I think the information about a possible assault (human and animal) should be reported so that it is on record. [/quote]

Points well made, but I've already accepted a risk by putting this up on a leaky forum. As for police involvement there have been some developments which I have a half knowledge of at the mo' and will post more after the w/e.

.[quote user="Niall Taylor"]How would you feel if you hadn't told anyone and a worse assault took place?[/quote]

A v good point. I shall be discrete and act when better informed by the appropriately qualified people.

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]Also, I'm at a loss as to what the RCVS has to do with it.[/quote]

I'm reluctant to go anywhere near them, irrespective of their claim to be an independent and authoritative source of info on animal welfare and promoting reporting of animal abuse and its links to family abuse. They would be a "dead hand" - an expression I borrowed from a current RCVS Councillor by the way . For instance they would not tell me how to report the mater, given that the owner was present at a consultation with the puppy and they might deem that enough to create immutable client confidentiality.

Regs

JGW

Re: When abuse gets personal

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 14 Jan 2011 15:31:38 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]I think the information about a possible assault (human and animal) should be reported so that it is on record. How would you feel if you hadn't told anyone and a worse assault took place?[/quote]

You can lay the information and ensure that it is recorded. I would certainly do that. The police will not take action if the assaulted person does not complain, but if anything else arises with this teenager they can refer back to it.

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]Also, I'm at a loss as to what the RCVS has to do with it.[/quote]

Me too.

Re: When abuse gets personal

Mark Holmes — Fri, 14 Jan 2011 15:27:36 GMT

I always work on the basis that it is better to be defending your actions than your inactions. Besides that consequences of inaction are often greater than the consequences of action.

Re: When abuse gets personal

Niall Taylor — Fri, 14 Jan 2011 15:12:46 GMT

Dear Mr Wray

[quote user="Jonathan Wray"]I have been complicit, by supplying details of rescue services to my client, who isn't the owner, in removing the property of the owner to a third party. I have also discussed the welfare aspects, which is tantamount to giving professional advice.I may not be at arms length.[/quote]

Surely (bearing in mind the comments about amateur legal advice) there is no way you could be held to be complicit in dog-napping or assault merely by providing information with good intentions in an attempt to help the situation. I think you've done quite the right thing, I'd have done much the same in your place. But probably you do need to take some proper legal advice before saying anything to any one. From what the client has said about this daughter she will almost certainly have a social worker already and I think the information about a possible assault (human and animal) should be reported so that it is on record. How would you feel if you hadn't told anyone and a worse assault took place?

Also, I'm at a loss as to what the RCVS has to do with it.

Niall

Re: When abuse gets personal

Martin Jones — Fri, 14 Jan 2011 14:53:48 GMT

In which case, I understand your trepidation and saying that you shouldn't worry is a bit like giving you a chocolate fireguard. But supplying the number of a rescue service is hardly a criminal act. If somebody unrelated to the family had called and asked what s/he should do in the event of an animal welfare issue, you might have been within your rights to give some generic advice and point them in the direction of a rescue organisation - the RSPCA. It happens to be a private outfit which has no authority and no powers that aren't available to a private citizen.

The content of your discussion about the welfare issues may be giving you some worry, but it's hard to comment without knowing exactly what was said. A general piece of advice on the avenues available in the event of concerns about welfare is not the same as supplying the loot sack and a crowbar, particularly if the information supplied is already in the public domain. Dog napping it may be, but not by you.

In terms of the assault, the police won't get involved unless the victim wishes to press charges, unless there is a third party complaint relating to public nuisance and the teenager already has form - cue ASBOs and similar - or in certain circumstances under the Mental Health Act, but that would require previous diagnosis and concerns, and would be more for sectioning and treatment than as punishment, and be warned, they can be out more or less the same day.

Don't forget the bottle of red on the way home

Re: When abuse gets personal

J G Wray — Fri, 14 Jan 2011 13:28:00 GMT

[quote user="Martin Jones"]You need to take the advice of suitably qualified person - possibly Mrs Wray - and not the opinions of your peers. I seem to remember a similar argument arose around the thorny subject of depressed vets asking their (unqualified) peers for advice. The same argument may be put forwards here - whilst we may commiserate with you and offer up our own experiences, we cannot advise you correctly on the legal implications of your actions.[/quote]

Thank you, a point well made Mr Jones.

The teenager in question is over 18.

There is more news filtering through today and will post resolution for those interested after w/e

Regs

JGW

Re: When abuse gets personal

Edward Jones — Fri, 14 Jan 2011 13:13:23 GMT

[quote user="Jonathan Wray"]This is because I have been complicit, by supplying details of rescue services to my client, who isn't the owner, in removing the property of the owner to a third party.[/quote]

If I were questioned along these lines I would maintain that I did not encourage my client to break the law. The information about rescue/rehoming could reasonably be supplied in good faith, with the intention that the client would persuade the owner to consent to rehoming. From what you've said I would not personally be concerned about any issue of wrong doing on my part (my uninformed, non-legal advise opinion, of course!)

In any case, such information (about rescue/rehoming) would be necessary if you were to go down the lines of forcefully taking the dog - this can be done legally under the 2006 Animal Welfare Act (a Police Officer would need to actually take the dog who would typically pass it on to an animal rescue organisation). You would not need to show that the dog had already come to harm, merely state that in your opinion the dog is likely to suffer poor welfare if its situation does not change.

Have you considered talking to the RSPCA? They can be rather effective at organising the removal of an animal. Personally I would not get involved in dog-napping without their help.

Re: When abuse gets personal

Martin Jones — Fri, 14 Jan 2011 13:07:15 GMT

Ah, the nub of the problem. Then I have two pieces of advice, the second of which supercedes the first.

1. If the daughter is a minor, you are completely in the clear - any professional services you provide, up to and including provision of rescue / adoption details, should go through the mother. Unless you stole the dog yourself, you're not doing anything unethical - indeed, you are upholding your ethical and legal duties.

2. You need to take the advice of suitably qualified person - possibly Mrs Wray - and not the opinions of your peers. I seem to remember a similar argument arose around the thorny subject of depressed vets asking their (unqualified) peers for advice. The same argument may be put forwards here - whilst we may commiserate with you and offer up our own experiences, we cannot advise you correctly on the legal implications of your actions.

Hope this helps.

Re: When abuse gets personal

J G Wray — Fri, 14 Jan 2011 11:02:58 GMT

Thank you one and all for the comments and contacts to help my client.

I am reluctant to contact the RCVS or police. This is because I have been complicit, by supplying details of rescue services to my client, who isn't the owner, in removing the property of the owner to a third party. I have also discussed the welfare aspects, which is tantamount to giving professional advice.I may not be at arms length.

Her mother and the rescue service are also involved, but not a stattory organisation. This is, in some measure dog-napping.

So what next?

JGW

Re: When abuse gets personal

Dagmar Steele — Fri, 14 Jan 2011 10:21:07 GMT

I'd call both police and RCVS. And I'd also buy a decent red on my way home but it would haunt me into my sleep anyway.

Re: When abuse gets personal

Vikki Halliday LLB — Fri, 14 Jan 2011 10:06:10 GMT

Is the 'Owner' over 16? You didn't specify so I am assuming yes otherwise you would have pointed out that it is illegal for a minor to own a pet, and that the legal ownership reverts to the parent. I'm also appalled by this and where a person is the recipient of physical abuse, I'd be tempted to call the police first and worry about the Rcvs later. The only problem is that the police will only generally take any action where the assault has taken place in public. Behind closed doors it is simply classed as domestic, however it does at least provide a record if there are repeat instances and may bring it to their attention. You could even report using the Crime Stoppers number which is of course anonymous.

Re: When abuse gets personal

Bob Russell — Fri, 14 Jan 2011 10:01:44 GMT

Having a relative in a not dissimilar situation I have little to add despite a lot of research! If you contact the Police they will investigate to variable degree depending on the area. Some forces will investigate all, even if the abused is reluctant to complain. Others will wash their hands of the matter and stand behind the argument that they cannot do anything unless there is a proper complaint (even then they may not be helpful).

There is an organisation www.womensaid.org.uk who are very helpful and give good advice. Depends how much you feel you want to get involved.

If in doubt give her the web address and let her decide.

Good on yer for caring!

Re: When abuse gets personal

Martin Jones — Fri, 14 Jan 2011 09:41:37 GMT

The fact that you're already this far involved is commendable, Mr Wray, and does you great credit.

Unfortunately, there is no easy answer from this point, and certainly no avenues of action which will guarantee you immunity from recrimination. Ideally, Social Services should be involved (is the teenager under / over 16 / 18?), but that may be a breach of confidentiality. In terms of helping the mother, unfortunately the old adage of horses and water applies: she knew that this would happen, but evidently took no steps to secure her own safety or at least notify someone in authority. Telling you was unfair on you, because she would have known that you were powerless to help, and that it would be stressful for you.

The RCVS - bless 'em - should be consulted. They may well tell you to exercise your judgement, which will be worse than useless, or they may give you sound and solid assurances as to the limit of your responsibilities and liabilities. Whichever outcome you expect, do contact them. There seems to be prevailing opinion that they won't help, which perhaps deters surgeons from contacting them - nothing could be less useful in sorting the current situation out. Contact them, make them put it in writing and you will at least have evidence of guidance, or lack thereof.

in practical terms, there's little you can do. The puppy has been rescued from abuse; the RSPCA are unlikely to get involved, even though the pup has suffered more deliberate and sustained abuse than, say, a cat dropped in a wheelie bin; the police won't want to know about assault on people or animals unless it comes from the victim directly - but don't let that stop you reporting your concerns, as once again it will be on file in case of future escalation / repercussions; the fact that your client knew what would happen but did nothing to safeguard herself suggests that there is a tacit acceptance of the situation.

My advice, as a vet working largely in the charity sector, who has been in many similar situations? Contact the RCVS and the police, buy a decent red on the way home from work tonight and don't beat yourself up.