Where be it written .......

Re: Where be it written .......

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 15 Jan 2011 22:10:41 GMT

wow - I didn't realise that what you are called can cause so much angst! Everyone I know calls me Gillian. As that is my name that suits me fine. I am not aware that I have a problem with asserting my authority when required

I have an easy spot for sales people who clearly don't actually know me or have an account - they call me Mrs Moysten. Drives me nuts. Wasn't as bad as when a nurse shouted it into the waiting room at the blood donation centre. I really felt like I should be working in the porn industry.....

Re: Where be it written .......

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 14 Jan 2011 19:32:27 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]so on that basis, first , or to us traditionalists, Christian names would be more appropriate on this forum[/quote]

Hmm. OK, Hannah.

Re: Where be it written .......

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 14 Jan 2011 18:37:20 GMT

I once read a letter in the VR which was written by a senior member of our profession. I wrote tohim agreeing with his stance,addressing him as Mr, and received a very nice telephone call in return, in which he asked me to call him by his Christian name. I said that I had addressed him by his surname, due to the age difference,and he said that we were all equal when we were members of the same profession-so on that basis, first , or to us traditionalists, Christian names would be more appropriate on this forum

Wynne

Re: Where be it written .......

Bob Russell — Fri, 14 Jan 2011 16:17:56 GMT

We maintain authority in this practice by mutual respect not by name/title (ie: I have long since learnt to do what I am told!).

Re: Where be it written .......

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 14 Jan 2011 15:55:50 GMT

[quote user="Martin Jones"]Have you ever considered writing a motivational book?[/quote]

Well, I have, but somehow I could never get started.

Re: Where be it written .......

Martin Jones — Thu, 13 Jan 2011 09:53:15 GMT

[quote user="Jonathan Wray"]

Bring on the ridicule, but preferably give us some substance.

[/quote]

Ah, wounded pride: the last (and only) refuge of the pompous.

[quote user="Jonathan Wray"]

Come on Mr Jones, surely you can do better than ridicule and metaphor?

[/quote]

No, I can't. It is my shame and my cross to bear, but with your continuing help I think I can make it work for me. Analogy was the word you were looking for; metaphors are different things altogether. And it's Big Juice, by the way. I have made this clear and am offended that you continue to address me by an inappropriate title. I am, after all, dead important and must be accorded superficial respect: how else will I measure my self-worth?

As for others calling me Tina - as though I might have a choice in the matter - being a sign of contempt, I fear you're right. Some days it's all I can do to continue to find ways to fault them. I find the best method of control is to be the most "lazy or untrustworthy or disruptive" of all - when they realise they just can't compete, most people seem to revert to being disciplined professionals. But rest assured, I'm always on the look-out for backsliding.

Have you ever considered writing a motivational book?

Re: Where be it written .......

J G Wray — Thu, 13 Jan 2011 07:43:33 GMT

[quote user="Martin Jones"]It's not considered good form for the host to hide in the bathroom whilst gatecrashers are leaving muddy footprints around the house.[/quote]

[quote user="Martin Jones"]For which I'm sure the courageous, thoughtful and intelligent women are exceptionally grateful - or, as we told our daughter when she was showing the first signs of cyniscim, 'it's lovely that you don't believe in Santa, but frankly he probably doesn't care'.[/quote]

[quote user="Martin Jones"]I'm pleased for you that somebody has invited you to do what she probably asks everybody to; if it makes you feel special, then an old and formidable lady will have granted you a great kindness at no personal cost. Truly, a warm fuzzy glow lights me up, although I fail to see the point you're making, other than that it's possible to promote oneself not by one's actions or beliefs, but by tenous association with more admirable people. Have you also considered joining the Take That Fan Club? Then you can know the multi-millionaires Gary, Barry, Rod, Jane and Freddy (or something similar) by their first names. You may even get a badge so people know you're special.[/quote]

[quote user="Martin Jones"]

[quote user="Jonathan Wray"]

Who's the most impressive older person you know and what do you call them - family excluded?

[/quote]

You, Big J; you. I live for these moments.

[/quote]

Come on Mr Jones, surely you can do better than ridicule and metaphor?

[quote user="Martin Jones"]Do you think Ms Cohen - who does, indeed, sound an astonishing and inspirational human being - tells other people that she knows you? Bless you.[/quote]

It's Madame Cohen (another courtesy title) to most and now she's frail, getting a bit vague and not getting out much there are regretably few people she has a chance to talk to. I am sanguine about my relevance to her existence and frankly to most others. Can you say the same or do you know how impressed we should be with you?

This business of being familiar with staff. You've made a joke about being called "Tina". The old quip is "familiarity breeds contempt", not respect and trust. So, how are you, going to manage the staff member who is lazy or untrustworthy or disruptive, in other words, just below the level of disciplinary and how are you going to manage those who have to go through a disciplinary? Will you get a proxy, your manager or head nurse perhaps, so everyone knows that "Tina" is still the good guy?

Being formal does not preclude firendliness, but being informal makes being authoritative more difficult. I hope you never have occasion ever in the course of your workling life to resort to disciplinarystuff let alonesomething more unpleasant like making people redundant, 'cos it won't be their mate "Tina's" finest hour.

Bring on the ridicule, but preferably give us some substance.

JGW

Re: Where be it written .......

jd2008 — Thu, 13 Jan 2011 00:21:28 GMT

I'm most amused that I've now "earned" the title of doctor simply by emigrating to Oz.

I was always a little miffed (but not overly bothered) that my UK clients almost to a man (woman) took it upon themselves to refer to me by my first name. There were very few clients I would address by their first name. Even then it was only upon their invitation. To me it was simply a matter of respect. I've always been of the opinion that the title/term /name used says more about the addresser than the addressee. It has never occurred to me to address my doctors by their first names as my relationship with them was always infrequent and on a purely professional basis. I do believe it is possible to be warm, friendly and courteous without resorting to the over-familiar. Or maybe I'm ridiculously old-fashioned.

Interestingly enough I'm almost exclusively referred to as Dr Dunnett by my clients in Oz. I'm not sure if it will ever feel 'right'

My husband earned his title by doing a PhD and is quite insistent on being addressed as such. I take great mischievous pleasure in pointing out a) he is technically only doctor - and entitled to be addressed as such - in his own field and b) Mr (or Mrs, Ms, Miss, whatever) is the higher title.

Having said all that my preferred title amongst my peers, familiar or not, is Jane.

Re: Where be it written .......

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 12 Jan 2011 18:35:58 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]You are all way off. It's a matter of courtesy, which is essentially a respect for others. What is courteous is whatever does not give offence. If somebody finds it offensive to be called by their Christian name, you use their surname. [/quote]

That's exactly what I was saying, though as usual, rather more eloquently put

...

... your worship

Re: Where be it written .......

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 12 Jan 2011 18:28:34 GMT

Beware of the grinning jackanapes who wants to use jolly all-pals-together diminutives even in formal situations. He's up to something. Remember the awful warning of "Call me Tony"

Re: Where be it written .......

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 12 Jan 2011 18:24:20 GMT

You are all way off. It's a matter of courtesy, which is essentially a respect for others. What is courteous is whatever does not give offence. If somebody finds it offensive to be called by their Christian name, you use their surname. If they find it offensive to be known by their bare surname (which, when I were a lad, was normal between men), you use a title. If they find it offensive to be known by anything other than a diminutive of their Christian name, then you use a diminutive of their Christian name. And so on.

If you do not know how they wish to be addressed, you use the more formal form until invited otherwise (directly or by implication). That is good manners.

My (few) staff call me "Evelyn" in private but "Mr. Hill" when clients are present. It's not difficult. If I employed a veterinary surgeon I would expect exactly the same, but I would extend the same courtesy to him (or her).

Occasionally clients address me as "Evelyn" without being invited to do so. I am too polite to protest, but I seethe inside.

Re: Where be it written .......

Mark Holmes — Wed, 12 Jan 2011 18:06:00 GMT

[quote user="Jonathan Wray"]Not using the famliar has been characterised as "arrogant" by one and "supercilious" by another. How about that word "respectful"? I'm constantly astonished how inflexible some are[/quote]

No.... not allowing others with whom you work to use your first name is arrogant. I call exteachers by their first name if I am still in touch with them. If they were to use my familiar name I would do likewise.

Re: Where be it written .......

bob lehner — Wed, 12 Jan 2011 17:38:47 GMT

[quote user="Jonathan Wray"]Who's the most impressive older person you know and what do you call them [/quote]

I always liked the story of Tony and Cherie Blair hob-nobbing with Royalty at some social event. Cherie says to HRH Princess Anne 'Oh, please, do call me Cherie'. HRH gives her a look that would curdle milk at a hundred paces and says 'Thank you, but I'll stick with Mrs Blair'.

Re: Where be it written .......

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 12 Jan 2011 17:25:58 GMT

This thread seems to have deviated somewhat but to get back to the OP and play devil's advocate I pose this question: How many who seem to have their arses in their hands* over the inconvenience of non-clients calling them for so called emergencies out of hours would quite so quickly turn away a similar case if it was 'a nice little earner' during normal hours? My experience is that many vets can be quite hypocritical on this front.

*in case of difficulty understanding this colloquialism cf: gettiing your knickers in a twist, becoming unreasonably and disproportionately upset about something.

Re: Where be it written .......

Martin Jones — Wed, 12 Jan 2011 17:11:14 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="Martin Jones"] What does J*N*S stand for, by the way?[/quote]

I think 'Jones' possibly referring to you? I may be wrong.

[/quote]

Ah. I thought as much. Clearly, the implication must be that my colleagues and clients call me Tina to my face, but mentally address me as Mr Jones. Curse them all for their two-faced backstabbing...........

Re: Where be it written .......

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 12 Jan 2011 16:55:30 GMT

[quote user="Martin Jones"] What does J*N*S stand for, by the way?[/quote]

I think 'Jones' possibly referring to you? I may be wrong.

Re: Where be it written .......

Martin Jones — Wed, 12 Jan 2011 16:14:50 GMT

[quote user="Jonathan Wray"]

Oh 'ello again, I was wondering if you'd pop up.

[/quote]

Well, I DID start the thread. It's not considered good form for the host to hide in the bathroom whilst gatecrashers are leaving muddy footprints around the house.

[quote user="Jonathan Wray"]

I'm not so sure about that two tier stuff being to do with courtesy titles, more likely to do with being two faced J*N*S (now there's an irony) and having staff that don't trust you. As for calling people by the name I feel they deserve, I'm prepared to think it but not divulge it. That's discretion by the way.

[/quote]

Nooooo. That's being two-faced. What does J*N*S stand for, by the way?

[quote user="Jonathan Wray"]

There is one very much older person, not a client, I respect who has invited me to use her first name and I am honoured to do so, but she's pretty much an exception.

This is unashamed name dropping, to make a point, so here goes

Armande Cohen - Elle est titulaire de la Croix de Guerre 1945, de la médaille des Forces françaises libres, commandeur de l'ordre de l'Empire britannique et officier de la Légion d'honneur.

Ker-Plunk

Guess what she did in the War. On the whole I've got quite a lot of time for courageous, thoughtful and intelligent women.

[/quote]

For which I'm sure the courageous, thoughtful and intelligent women are exceptionally grateful - or, as we told our daughter when she was showing the first signs of cyniscim, 'it's lovely that you don't believe in Santa, but frankly he probably doesn't care'.

I'm pleased for you that somebody has invited you to do what she probably asks everybody to; if it makes you feel special, then an old and formidable lady will have granted you a great kindness at no personal cost. Truly, a warm fuzzy glow lights me up, although I fail to see the point you're making, other than that it's possible to promote oneself not by one's actions or beliefs, but by tenous association with more admirable people. Have you also considered joining the Take That Fan Club? Then you can know the multi-millionaires Gary, Barry, Rod, Jane and Freddy (or something similar) by their first names. You may even get a badge so people know you're special.

Do you think Ms Cohen - who does, indeed, sound an astonishing and inspirational human being - tells other people that she knows you? Bless you.

[quote user="Jonathan Wray"]

Who's the most impressive older person you know and what do you call them - family excluded?

[/quote]

You, Big J; you. I live for these moments.

Re: Where be it written .......

J G Wray — Wed, 12 Jan 2011 15:31:55 GMT

[quote user="Martin Jones"]The Big Jiuce[/quote]

Oh 'ello again, I was wondering if you'd pop up.

[quote user="Martin Jones"]Insistence on being addressed by a title generally leads to a two-tier system of identification: what people call one to one's face; and what they call one behind one's back. Personally, I remain consistent and - with the exception of 'your honour' - call people by the name I feel they deserve.[/quote]

I still use the courtesy title out of respect rather than first name terms with tutors and Professorsand I certainly do with doctors, dentists and surgeons, because I want to have very little to do with them beyond their professional input.

There is one very much older person, not a client, I respect who has invited me to use her first name and I am honoured to do so, but she's pretty much an exception.

This is unashamed name dropping, to make a point, so here goes

Armande Cohen - Elle est titulaire de la Croix de Guerre 1945, de la médaille des Forces françaises libres, commandeur de l'ordre de l'Empire britannique et officier de la Légion d'honneur.

Ker-Plunk

Guess what she did in the War. On the whole I've got quite a lot of time for courageous, thoughtful and intelligent women.

Who's the most impressive older person you know and what do you call them - family excluded?

JGW

Re: Where be it written .......

Martin Jones — Wed, 12 Jan 2011 14:48:33 GMT

Vikki

[quote user="Vikki Halliday"]

it would appear we may never agree on the colour of sh1te, so I will gracefully retreat.

[/quote]

Perhaps not so much the colour as to whether or not it still stinks. Mine does, unequivocally. I suspect you'd admit to the same. Some people hereabouts probably wouldn't admit to producing any in the first place.

My favourite phrase of all time: opinions are like @rseholes - everybody's got one and they're all full of sh1te.

Martin - but you can call me what you like.

Re: Where be it written .......

Martin Jones — Wed, 12 Jan 2011 14:47:19 GMT

Dear Big J,

My dentist is called Steve, and the doctors are Jane and Rob. The bloke who holds the deeds to the house at the building society is Dan, and my solicitor is called Jane. They're all delightful people, some of whom I socialise with occasionally, and my relationship with them is enhanced by the fact that we are equals who are able to conduct ourslves simultaneously on both professional AND friendly terms. I realise that not everybody feels able to pull off this trick, and I do have sympathy for them.

Insistence on being addressed by a title generally leads to a two-tier system of identification: what people call one to one's face; and what they call one behind one's back. Personally, I remain consistent and - with the exception of 'your honour' - call people by the name I feel they deserve.

My name in practice is Tina, which means that everybody, from the newest and shiniest work experience student upwards fails to be intimidated by me, feels able to approach me about anything which bothers them, and that I am easily called to account for my actions. I do wait to be invited by clients, mainly because I think of them in terms of Mr and Mrs, although few remain that way for long - unless they're little old ladies, in which case we make an elaborate song and dance about the Mrs bit. In a previous life, I would have been Dirk Bogarde's uglier twin brother.

The Big Jiuce

(a moniker, incidentally, given to me by you - and I still love it)

Re: Where be it written .......

Vikki Halliday LLB — Wed, 12 Jan 2011 13:48:56 GMT

[quote user="Jonathan Wray"]How do you address your former tutors/teachers/professors once qualified?[/quote]

By their first name, as they do with me. It seems to be somewhat of a "rite of passage", and most request that we talk as colleagues rather than maintain the pupil-teacher relationship.

[quote user="Jonathan Wray"]How many of you are invited to call your GP/Surgeon/Dentist by their first name[/quote]

I was also invited to call my new dentist "Alison", my doctor "Alastair", and my surgeon didn't even introduce himself to me, but then they are another breed entirely!

You misquote me. I said that I felt in the context of this internet forum where we are all professional colleagues discussing subjects in a friendly and non-confrontational manner, in my opinion the use of a person's prefix whether correctly or incorrectly attributed was not respectful. I would go as far as to say it feels inappropriate to me in these posts and feels somewhat supercilious. But as I also said, it would appear we may never agree on the colour of sh1te, so I will gracefully retreat.

Re: Where be it written .......

bob lehner — Wed, 12 Jan 2011 13:41:46 GMT

[quote user="Jonathan Wray"]Dr Lehner has obviously put in the time and effort required for his PhD and [/quote]

I've never actually used the 'Dr' title when in practice, as I suppose I didn't think it was terribly relevant and I certainly never considered myself, or wanted to suggest to clients, that I was better than, or superior to my colleagues in any shape or form ! Interestingly in 30 + years I can only recall one client ever taking note of the PhD on my brass plate and addressing me accordingly.

Periodically there have been letters to the Vet Record saying that UK vets should adopt the title 'Dr', as do European, US and Aussie vets, to enhance our status. Frankly I don't think the public could care less and would not be impressed by us granting ourselves extra titles. Interesting tho' that UK dentists can now call themselves 'Dr'.

Re: Where be it written .......

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 12 Jan 2011 13:35:10 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

My blood boils to see elderly people addressed by Christian names by nurses/carers. Where is the respect?

I am quite chuffed when my clients feel comfortable calling me Bob

[/quote]

I introduce myself to clients as 'Michael', but if they want to call me by my first name I expect to use theirs. For the very vast majority of clients we are on first name terms as they are known to us and mostly farm clients. I would refer to them by surname, but I can be 'Mr Woodhouse' if they want to play the formality game.It's got to be the same for both parties, especially when they are consulting us for our professional opinion.

[quote user="Jonathan Wray"]This thing about being equals and first names amongst colleagues. How do you address your former tutors/teachers/professors once qualified?[/quote]

By their Christian names. Maybe I am a different generation to you, but we addressed staff at uni on first name terms.

Re: Where be it written .......

bob lehner — Wed, 12 Jan 2011 13:10:03 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]A good filter for me is being addressed as Robert on the phone.[/quote]

That works for me too - the only person in the world who calls me 'Robert' is my mother - a name I detest !

Re: Where be it written .......

J G Wray — Wed, 12 Jan 2011 13:09:32 GMT

This thing about being equals and first names amongst colleagues. How do you address your former tutors/teachers/professors once qualified? Dr Lehner has obviously put in the time and effort required for his PhD and to draw on another thread, did you know Steve Dean as he is so often referred to, is a Professor and he earned that too?

How many of you are invited to call your GP/Surgeon/Dentist by their first name?

Isn't using their courtesy title respectful?

Not using the famliar has been characterised as "arrogant" by one and "supercilious" by another. How about that word "respectful"? I'm constantly astonished how inflexible some are.

JGW