Giant Fox

Re: Giant Fox

Simon Neuhoff — Thu, 06 Jan 2011 18:01:23 GMT

No Malcolm that would be a disaster. We'd have drunken idiots on horses all over the show making a hell of a racket, careering through people's gardens and scaring the old folks. Not to mention dogs chasing the cats.

Re: Giant Fox

Malcolm Ness — Thu, 06 Jan 2011 16:41:40 GMT

I've had this great idea..............

Why not turn the control of vermin like foxes into a sport! That would then guarantee the future of the species by giving it a significant human economic value. What's more, if we planned the sport properly, for example, by insisting that it was done on horseback then it could employ people and become a useful part of the rural economy. What's more, if a pack of hounds were kept to chase the fox, even more people could be kept in work and a useful spin-off would be the disposal of fallen stock. Does anyone see a problem????

Re: Giant Fox

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 06 Jan 2011 16:28:42 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] we can do what we want to our own species because whatever problems we cause for ourselves are own fault[/quote]

What's all this "our"?

However, if you reckon you have caused some problems and you are inviting me along to shoot you................

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]we have no right to determine the destiny of other species.[/quote]

No saving anything from extinction then.

Re: Giant Fox

Rob Reid — Thu, 06 Jan 2011 10:49:04 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]As for the old folks home: my daughters are under orders to take me to Switzerland, not to Dignitas but to the top of a mountain, strap me to my snowboard and push me off [/quote]

Sounds like a pretty good way to go to me!! I may substitute Switzerland for Canada though....

Re: Giant Fox

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 06 Jan 2011 10:37:06 GMT

[quote user="Vikki Halliday"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]It is not the fox's fault that we have provided them with a ready food source in urban environments[/quote]

Does this mean we should not lock up criminals because it is society which has left opportunities for them to commit such crimes?

[/quote]

Your are being at best duplicitous and at worst hypocritical Vikki with this and your previous post. My whole point is that it is the human race which has cocked things up so the natural order of things is disturbed and produces an inbalance which opportunists like foxes and rats exploit. We should be concentating on understanding why foxes eat cats and rats live in the loft and getting our own house in order rather than destroying those creatures that have adapted and benefited otherwise killing them is just a short term fix and another opportunist species will be along to fill the gap. The world would be a lot better off without us but worry not: if we don't destroy ourselves by nuclear war of global warming some natural disaster will be along soon which will destroy 99% of all life on earth and nature can start again of if we all wait until the sun turns into a red giant then we're all stuffed. As for the old folks home: my daughters are under orders to take me to Switzerland, not to Dignitas but to the top of a mountain, strap me to my snowboard and push me off - I will then either have the ride of my life and realise there's life in the old dog yet or I will die happy doing what I love and in the place I love the most. As for your sentence above: we can do what we want to our own species because whatever problems we cause for ourselves are own fault but we have no right to determine the destiny of other species.

Re: Giant Fox

Rob Reid — Thu, 06 Jan 2011 10:09:31 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

we need to keep things under control. Pigeons and rabbits damage crops [including my own cabbages]. Badgers unequivocally carry and transmit TB, look at the DEFRA site and some of the better research on the subject. I would happily eradicate rats if I could.

[/quote]

Shooting or deterring animals that have a serious impact on agriculture or pose a more immediate threat to human health is arguably more justifiable - bear in mind my point was made from the fence, good to see it has stimulated some debate!

But I still query whether it was fair to kill this individual for attacking a cat. I have a couple of feral cats that fowl in my back garden and wind up my dogs. Does this mean I am allowed to shoot them? If my dog attacks one of the cats, does this mean that someone has the right to shoot my dog?

Where exactly does one draw the line?!

Re: Giant Fox

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 05 Jan 2011 23:28:50 GMT

Let me ask a simple question, if you had a rat infestation in your house [loft or garage] what would you do? Live with gods creatures or poison and trap the buggers as fast as possible? I know what I would do. Foxes and badgers are vermin with a good PR man. They are not as cuddly as Basil Brush or the Badger in Wind in the Willows. Sadly their numbers have rocketed and with no natural predators it is left to us to control them.

[quote user="Rob Reid"]Yes, it is true that foxes serve as reservoirs of certain nasty diseases but so do rats, seagulls, pigeons, badgers (well maybe...) even 'feral' domestic cats etc. etc. Does that give us a right to cull every single one of them? [/quote]

No, but we need to keep things under control. Pigeons and rabbits damage crops [including my own cabbages]. Badgers unequivocally carry and transmit TB, look at the DEFRA site and some of the better research on the subject. I would happily eradicate rats if I could.

At no point in time did I suggest killing all the foxes, merely controlling them. Everyone thinks the countryside just happened but it is man and agriculture that has shaped it and has a duty to look after it.

Re: Giant Fox

Vikki Halliday LLB — Wed, 05 Jan 2011 23:16:07 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]It is not the fox's fault that we have provided them with a ready food source in urban environments[/quote]

Does this mean we should not lock up criminals because it is society which has left opportunities for them to commit such crimes?

Re: Giant Fox

Mark Holmes — Wed, 05 Jan 2011 22:58:06 GMT

[quote user="Vikki Halliday"]

[quote user="Mark Holmes"] As an apex predator their numbers are only going to be controlled by disease or starvation.[/quote]

Playing Devil's Advocate, but that could equally apply to the human race.

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]I REALLY CANNOT see the point of fox rescue centres.[/quote]

ergo I can't see the point in Old People's Homes...............if I ever get that old, I'd prefer to be shot while running across a field in a rather expensive fur coat.

[/quote] There is I philosophy which states it will apply to the human race. The population will be controlled by draconian laws on childbirth or disease, war and starvation.

Re: Giant Fox

Mark Holmes — Wed, 05 Jan 2011 22:52:58 GMT

My point did not require the failing fox to be shot. Too many foxes leads to starvation and disease. Fewer foxes less starvation and disease amongst the population. Either the fox population is controlled or it reaches a level when starvation and disease becomes the norm. Let's face it, it's down to humans it has reached the level it is. Therefore we should reduce it.

Re: Giant Fox

Vikki Halliday LLB — Wed, 05 Jan 2011 22:24:29 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"] As an apex predator their numbers are only going to be controlled by disease or starvation.[/quote]

Playing Devil's Advocate, but that could equally apply to the human race.

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]I REALLY CANNOT see the point of fox rescue centres.[/quote]

ergo I can't see the point in Old People's Homes...............if I ever get that old, I'd prefer to be shot while running across a field in a rather expensive fur coat.

Re: Giant Fox

Julian Earl — Wed, 05 Jan 2011 21:35:55 GMT

How do you know you are shooting the failing individual that is going to starve or die from some disease? This giant individual seems to have been thriving.

Re: Giant Fox

Mark Holmes — Wed, 05 Jan 2011 18:25:08 GMT

I don't understand the objection to shooting foxes. As an apex predator their numbers are only going to be controlled by disease or starvation. Why is this better than shooting them? It's natural do it must be ok? We would not allow it for domestic species so why should foxes suffer it? Beautiful animals but would shoot them without hesitation, and I REALLY CANNOT see the point of fox rescue centres.

Re: Giant Fox

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 05 Jan 2011 10:46:52 GMT

Let us not forget that foxes are indigenous species and have adapted to an environment we have created for them. It is not the fox's fault that we have provided them with a ready food source in urban environments be it the very rare pet cat or more usually the badly stored refuse they can gain access to. The idiots who've left their rotting turkey carcases out on the grass verge for the past 2 weeks because there have been no refuse collections have given the foxes an even greater food supply - no wonder they're evolving into giants The same with rural foxes, if the chicken coup is an easier target than hunting rabbits of course they'll take it. We've destroyed the vast majority of the wildlife in this country, like it or not, to suit our own selfish aspirations as a species, when are we going to stop?. CF if someone wants to go swimming or diving in the sea and gets eaten by a shark or goes hiking in the wilderness and gets attacked by a bear its their fault - stay out the b*****y water or the woods, don't blame the animals for attempting to survive, tidy up our act and deprive the urban fox of its food source, let's not go all vigilante on wildlife. Like Kate if one killed my cat I'd be upset but that's life, s**t happens, and I don't believe for one minute a fox attacked anybody's child in it's cot but if they do then its still our fault not the fox's.

Re: Giant Fox

Rob Reid — Wed, 05 Jan 2011 10:45:44 GMT

Wow - certainly an impressive fox, obviously been staking out the local takeaways for too long!!

An interesting debate. I can see the points made with regards to killing foxes that pose a risk to livestock, but I too would question whether it is right to be shooting a fox that has killed a cat. The 'spate' of fox attacks on people is an interesting one....especially the recent case of the baby attacked within a home - as someone else pointed out, I too query how true this story actually was, all seemed a little sensationlist for me.

Yes, it is true that foxes serve as reservoirs of certain nasty diseases but so do rats, seagulls, pigeons, badgers (well maybe...) even 'feral' domestic cats etc. etc. Does that give us a right to cull every single one of them? We have forced these animals into the environmental predicament that they are in, so it is not their fault that they have had to adjust their eating and scavenging habits to cope.

I was very lucky to visit Vancouver last year (if you have not been I would highly recommend it - one of nicest cities I have ever seen.) Some friends out there told me about a number of recent incidents where small dogs and cats had been killed by the local population of sea eagles. Along the same lines, the recent flooding in Australia is going to force a lot of highly venomous snakes and saltwater crocodiles into urban areas, posing a risk to people and animals. Taking this all into account - does this mean that we should be culling these populations of creatures because we have invaded their ecosystem and they pose a risk to our culture?

Just a thought....

Re: Giant Fox

Kate Richardson — Wed, 05 Jan 2011 09:25:13 GMT

I agree with Katja,I think it is a shame and is essentially a revenge killing.Obviously I would be horribly upset if this happened to my cat, but I don't think I'd be calling the nearest good shot to stake it out. They may not be cute and friendly but they are beautiful animals and wonderful to see in the countryside, but we have to ask why their behaviour is changing, and that comes down to us. So once again humans end up blaming another creature for its actions when it is often a result of OUR actions as a race. The fox just does what its instincts tell it. I know of several cats (and pet rabbits and even dogs) killed by dogs, they don't get shot or euthanased in most cases, and plenty of dogs have bitten people but they get loads of second chances and we have more influnce over their behaviour than we do over a wild animal. I don't have a problem with clean humane killing by farmers if a particular animal is causing a persistent problem.

Re: Giant Fox

katja wagner — Wed, 05 Jan 2011 07:04:25 GMT

[quote user="Vikki Halliday"]

[quote user="katja wagner"]

I dont regard foxes as vermin and actually like them.

[/quote]

Tell that to all the farmers/stockholders/parents who have been involved when foxes have attacked livestock/children.

Please Katja, spare us the sentimentality. They always have been classed as vermin for very good reason, and they are pretty good intermediate hosts and reservoirs of infection for domestic pets too. Crenosoma vulpis and mange a prime example.

Yes they serve a useful purpose at the near peak of the natural pyramid of our ecosystem, but they will never be "cute", "nice" or "friendly". Albeit they have a passing resemblance to the domestic dog, but to extrapolate your like of this species onto the fox is as bad as anthropomorphism gets.

I'll happily admit they can be majestic looking, but if I had one on my farm I would also happily admit to shooting it.

[/quote]

Dear Vicky,

sorry that I dare to have an opinion which you dislike,no need to be so patronising,considered a long reply to explain myself but that would be just a waste of my time!

katja

Re: Giant Fox

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 04 Jan 2011 22:25:03 GMT

The child is 7 years old

Re: Giant Fox

Vikki Halliday LLB — Tue, 04 Jan 2011 22:11:23 GMT

[quote user="katja wagner"]

I dont regard foxes as vermin and actually like them.

[/quote]

Tell that to all the farmers/stockholders/parents who have been involved when foxes have attacked livestock/children.

I'll happily admit they can be majestic looking, but if I had one on my farm I would also happily admit to shooting it.

Re: Giant Fox

katja wagner — Tue, 04 Jan 2011 21:27:35 GMT

I dont regard foxes as vermin and actually like them.

where is the evidence that it really was a fox who bitt the 3 year old boy and there is no proof that it was a fox who killed the old cat ?

would you also kill every dog who bites or kills a cat as terrible as this might be?

yes it was horrible that babys had been attacked by a fox but does this mean we have to get rid of everything which might be a potential threat for us?

might aswell start to get rid of human race first;

katja

Re: Giant Fox

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 04 Jan 2011 21:14:18 GMT

[quote user="katja wagner"]

why was it necessary to kill him?

katja

[/quote]

Yes of course. Did you see the recent issue of Veterinary Practice with the diseases fox can spread to domestic pets?

Did you see the twins attacked by a fox?

Fox attacks on children are common.

If someone's dog killed a domestic cat what should it's fate be?

They are vermin and totally out of control and need controlling. I had my chickens and ducks massacred by a fox a few years ago. No sympathy for the mangy buggers from me.

Re: Giant Fox

sainbaeno — Tue, 04 Jan 2011 20:17:09 GMT

Yes-why kill him? Just because he killed a cat? Natural for him I would have thought....

Re: Giant Fox

katja wagner — Tue, 04 Jan 2011 19:55:42 GMT

why was it necessary to kill him?

katja

Re: Giant Fox

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 04 Jan 2011 17:07:48 GMT

No proof, but I've heard rumours of foxes killing cats, but never before confirmed That definitely was a huge fox

Wynne

Re: Giant Fox

Richard Fox — Tue, 04 Jan 2011 10:20:38 GMT

I thought it was a post about me?