Anonymous log-in facility

Re: Anonymous log-in facility

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 17 Dec 2010 08:44:04 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Arlo - do you think this could be the time to close this thread?[/quote]

Yes, I think it probably is! I think the pros and cons have really been covered. Personally, I think anonymous posting is in principle a good thing, but that it all comes down to careful moderation.

Re: Anonymous log-in facility

J G Wray — Fri, 17 Dec 2010 08:02:56 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Arlo - do you think this could be the time to close this thread?[/quote]Mr Guthrie's offline at the mo'. If you've got a problem with this thread, why not unsubscribe? It's a bit like not watching a program on TV. The option is available to you.

JGW

Re: Anonymous log-in facility

Vikki Halliday LLB — Fri, 17 Dec 2010 00:02:26 GMT

Oh and as to pedantics, one fewer sounds better, but then it's been a long day Mr Wray. Goodnight!

Re: Anonymous log-in facility

Vikki Halliday LLB — Thu, 16 Dec 2010 23:59:27 GMT

Interesting point Jonathan, and I concede that if an individual posting anonymously were prompted to take any action which resulted in a negative consequence, then indeed all reason is lost. However you presume also that such an individual exists, and in spite of positive and reassuring messages that they were not alone, and pleas to seek professional help, that individual chose a negative path. Now let's presuppose that to be the case. How likely is it do you think that individual to be already in a tunnel visioned state of mind, and unlikely to be diverted from their perceived solution? I have presupposed two main concepts in my antipathy, one: that An On Vet was not so negative and bent on such a destructive path. Two: that the messages placed in response to his or her post were of a positive nature, and on balance likely to discourage a negative action. I do think that those suppositions hold true. Ergo my argument. We are generally a supportive bunch, and I think this person needed to ask for peer reassurance before finally admitting to themselves that things could possibly be improved by medication. If the individual were hell bent on self destruction, I doubt any forum could have persuaded them otherwise. Anonymity is a reassurance some need. That's why The Samaritans is so successful.

Re: Anonymous log-in facility

J G Wray — Thu, 16 Dec 2010 23:42:02 GMT

[quote user="Vikki Halliday"]If the ability to anonymously post on this or any other similar forum, as a direct consequence causes one less person to take their own life as a result, can you not at least concede that this is a potential benefit?[/quote]

Yes.....If - and there's the rub. This is a deontological argument ( I think you asked for that) which presumes a rightness or moral authority.

An alternate postulation also based on an "If" - you're asking for an "If" and I'm asking for an "If":

If someone - Anon - had posted that they were asking about others experience of medication and had received equivocal or negative feedback from a group of non-experts and to borrow from an Anon, "probably" used the responses not to take medication and "..as a direct consequence causes one [more] person to take their own life as a result, can you not at least concede that this is a potential [harm]?"

Your contention is based on the premise only of a positive outcome. In my thesis, Anon feels capable of approaching the group on the same premise as yours, but looks at the possibilty of a negative outcome.

Neither result would be certain if Anons were directed to experts and qualified people. You cannot claim, consequent upon your actions a sense of enhanced self-worth for achieving your aim without being prepared to shoulder the responsibility for my postulation. Could you do that, or are you selective?

If anonymous postings were not allowed you would not be involved in a potentially harmful exercise. You would do no harm. Where have you heard that before?

As for those posting under the Anon title at the moment who are in personal difficulty then there are other methods of engaging the group experience, which allows confidentiality - surely the same end as "anonymity" - without trapping those that respond into the possibilty of being responsible for a ghastly mistake.

Regs

JGW

PS Is it "..as a direct consequence causes one less person.." or "..one fewer" You claim to be the pedant, so which is it?

Re: Anonymous log-in facility

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 16 Dec 2010 23:40:18 GMT

Arlo - do you think this could be the time to close this thread?

Re: Anonymous log-in facility

Vikki Halliday LLB — Thu, 16 Dec 2010 22:54:59 GMT

[quote user="Jonathan Wray"]If you are antipathetic to the view expressed then failing to come up with a persuasive argument to shift the antagonist is just that, a failure[/quote]

Ok, one last time. If the ability to anonymously post on this or any other similar forum, as a direct consequence causes one less person to take their own life as a result, can you not at least concede that this is a potential benefit?

I retire to be pedantic and postulate on praetorianism as a possible prelude to pessimism....................

Re: Anonymous log-in facility

J G Wray — Thu, 16 Dec 2010 22:48:01 GMT

[quote user="Vikki Halliday"]

I prefer to use this definition:

praetorian
Ruthlessly seeking personal advantage

[/quote]

Eh? what personal advantage? Happy to admit to sticking up for myself, but as for personal gain, where has that come from?

Do you mean pecuniary, often associated with venality? I can't see how that's the case.

Do you mean advantage as in seld-advancement through an enhanced reputation? Perrrlease...

Nope, can't see how I've sought to gain 'owt personally.

There's a confusion which I think exists in some people's minds. If someone expresses a point of view and remains firm in that point of view in spite of a clamour of outrage/indignation, there is no inherent quality in that stance which is selfish or self-seeking, it's just unpopular with some noisy people.

It is just an example of resolve, for whatever reason.

If you are antipathetic to the view expressed then failing to come up with a persuasive argument to shift the antagonist is just that, a failure.On the whole name calling e.g. "idiot" and "clown" and bluster in general ain't that persuasive, but please carry on in that mode if you wish, it's your choice.

In spite of the "noise" to the contrary, I still don't think anonymous postings should be allowed. No hijacking from me, this is where I started and it is Mr Guthrie who took it elsewhere, through example. It's his list and his privilege.

Regs

JGW

Re: Anonymous log-in facility

Vikki Halliday LLB — Thu, 16 Dec 2010 18:40:35 GMT

Now, I've bust my corset and got this off my chest, I shall respectfully suggest we stop hijacking this thread, and retire instead to more clinical matters.............

Re: Anonymous log-in facility

Vikki Halliday LLB — Thu, 16 Dec 2010 18:38:50 GMT

Dear Jonathan,

In answer to your questions:

No we have not met. I wondered why you asked then realised it was because you probably wished we had. I'm sure we would get along famously and have many debates on aspects of the profession and life in general. This by the way is a statement of my opinion, perhaps yours will respectfully differ from mine, but nothing new there.

Praetorian was used as an alternative to stating that I thought you were ruthlessly pursuing the self seeking goals that the preators assosciated with the roman judicial system were. It is a slight bastardisation of a previously used official title, however the definition does in some dictionaries mention venality and corruptness, which I have chosen to ignore in this implied meaning.

Praetorian, Pretorian
characteristic of or similar to the corruptible soldiers in the Praetorian Guard with respect to corruption or political venality
"a large Praetorian bureaucracy filled with ambitious...and often sycophantic people makes work and makes trouble"- Arthur M.Schlesinger Jr

I prefer to use this definition:

praetorian
Ruthlessly seeking personal advantage

However, without wishing to return to Pedants Corner, I did not in any way imply you were the worse for being well educated. On the contrary, I find it enlightening to have such an in depth debate with such a well read and experienced chap.

I do agree that I cannot possibly be in such an insightful position as to be the arbiter of my advice, however it was just that, therefore no arbitration is given as it was, and remains, an opinion.

And whilst I thank you for noting my feelings, (acknowledgement is a powerful tool, and one which is useful in all manner of debates), I also acknowledge that I am not in control of, nor do I have any wish to be in control of your acrid postings in any other medium.

Yes I shall refrain from asking you why you feel this way, and to what end your posts reflect your past live(s), however they have perhaps tainted your comments IMHO with a degree of ascerbic tone. (No acknowledgement necessary on this point).

Anyway, I do hope you and I meet in the near future, and that you will see this debate for what it is; an attempt to debate the need for an anonymous login facility, which I for one agree with.

Yours,

(not in the least ill-tempered and intemperatedly by the way)

Vikki

Re: Anonymous log-in facility

J G Wray — Thu, 16 Dec 2010 15:21:45 GMT

Dear Ms Halliday,

Thank you for your comments. We haven't met have we?

[quote user="Vikki Halliday"]Were you going to or was JGW being perhaps a little supercillious and praetorian[/quote]

"Praetorian" as in the Guard? Hmmm. I'm not sure that having a wide vocabulary or being moderately well read is to my detriment. What do you think?

[quote user="Vikki Halliday"]Perhaps the best thing if criticised is to let it go Johnathan,[/quote]

Are you the arbiter of these things?

[quote user="Vikki Halliday"]I'm horrified that as a professional you choose to vilify an individual who was brave enough to ask for our help, and if you disagreed with the overwhelming majority of posts from those of use who have suffered from depression, you should IMHO, have kept shtum.[/quote]

I can't do much about your personal feelings but they are duly noted.

[quote user="Vikki Halliday"]Your input was neither constructive not in the general spirit of the forum.[/quote]

Noted

[quote user="Vikki Halliday"]You may wish to continue with your private dry asides to equally unsympathetic and supercillious vets in the other forum you regularly post on,[/quote]

I'm not sure you're in control of this either.

For what it's worth and that's probably not much, from my point of view the curious thing is how all this antipathy to what I have been writing is mainly based upon indignation as in "..I'm horrified that as a professional you choose to vilify an individual who was brave enough to ask for our help.." . There doesn't seem to be any curiosity about why I wrote these things and how I came to hold my point of view, which if memory serves started with my objection to the use of anonymity and was driven by Mr Guthrie into a discussion about vets discussing and advising on medicine.

Don't start asking now when you've bust a corset as in "..had to get that off my chest..". The time to ask , if you ever have the capacity to entertain another point of view, rather than nurture indignation, is at the beginning of a discussion, not the ill-tempered and intemperate conclusion.

Regs

JGW

Re: Anonymous log-in facility

Vikki Halliday LLB — Thu, 16 Dec 2010 12:39:20 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

Er yes, JGW did send me a private message asking me not to delete clown / idiot.

[/quote]

Were you going to or was JGW being perhaps a little supercillious and praetorian? (see we can all use a dictionary!)

Perhaps the best thing if criticised is to let it go Johnathan, and as one of the posters who replied to A Non MRCVS in the original Citalopram post, I think we all tried very hard to direct the individual to professional advice, however there is great value when suffering from depression in seeking acknowledgement that you are not alone, and there are people who can tell you that there is a light at the end of the dark tunnel you find yourself in.

I'm horrified that as a professional you choose to vilify an individual who was brave enough to ask for our help, and if you disagreed with the overwhelming majority of posts from those of use who have suffered from depression, you should IMHO, have kept shtum.

Your input was neither constructive not in the general spirit of the forum. You may wish to continue with your private dry asides to equally unsympathetic and supercillious vets in the other forum you regularly post on, which does seem to read rather like a "Idle thoughts of an Idle Fellow", albeit Jerome K Jerome had more tolerance for the rest of the human race than youself it seems.

Sorry Arlo, had to get that off my chest!

Re: Anonymous log-in facility

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 16 Dec 2010 09:12:07 GMT

[quote user="Jonathan Wray"]Oh 'ello. I think Mr Guthrie has ruled on who's the Big J(uice) and it's you.[/quote]

Er (scratches head), did I? I don't think I did.

[quote user="Jonathan Wray"]Well, you've done a good job and established the precedent. We can look forward to others using these terms on this list now. Mr Guthrie will bear me out that I have asked for him to do nothing about this - twice.[/quote]

Er yes, JGW did send me a private message asking me not to delete clown / idiot.

But no, that doesn't mean others can start calling each other clowns and idiots in these forums, not that I think there's much of a demand for it anyway.

Re: Anonymous log-in facility

J G Wray — Wed, 15 Dec 2010 14:07:09 GMT

Oh 'ello. I think Mr Guthrie has ruled on who's the Big J(uice) and it's you.

[quote user="Martin Jones"]Honestly, Big J, I'm a teensy bit embarrassed for you now and I'm thinking of dissolving the partnership. You can keep the cape, as a great future in one-dimensional cartoon villainy surely awaits for you.[/quote]

[quote user="Martin Jones"]..please don't listen to anything this clown has to say; I'm sure I speak for many on here when I say that he's a prize idiot[/quote]

Well, you've done a good job and established the precedent. We can look forward to others using these terms on this list now. Mr Guthrie will bear me out that I have asked for him to do nothing about this - twice.

JGW

Re: Anonymous log-in facility

Bob Russell — Wed, 15 Dec 2010 11:24:44 GMT

Threads are much more fun (and often more informative) when hijacked. Long may it continue!

Re: Anonymous log-in facility

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 15 Dec 2010 11:18:46 GMT

Re: Anonymous log-in facility

Andrew Mellor — Wed, 15 Dec 2010 09:06:41 GMT

Re: Anonymous log-in facility

Martin Jones — Wed, 15 Dec 2010 08:09:47 GMT

[quote user="Jonathan Wray"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]I am not sure what your problem is but one day you may (sadly) learn a few truths about depression/mental illness - hopefully you will never need to find out![/quote]

Thank you for the sentiment. If I do, I doubt I'll ask a vet though.

[/quote]

So.

You won't be phoning the vet helplines, then.

Honestly, Big J, I'm a teensy bit embarrassed for you now and I'm thinking of dissolving the partnership. You can keep the cape, as a great future in one-dimensional cartoon villainy surely awaits for you.

Big M

Re: Anonymous log-in facility

An On MRCVS — Tue, 14 Dec 2010 22:56:33 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

Anon - would be interesting to know a) whether you knew about the Veterinary Surgeon's Helpline before posting, b) whether or not you used it, c) if not, why not, and finally e) if you did use it, which (if any) was the more helpful, the advice there, or the discussion here?

[/quote]

I'll go for option D.........

Yes, I'm well aware of the helpline, and have considered phoning it before. However, as it's not my work at issue, but rather a fairly dull and grinding low-grade depression with which I'm intimately acquainted, I'm less in need of general advice on combating symptoms and rather more in need of advice from other people who've been though the same experience. I could have that conversation with somebody in a one-to-one setting, and have to fend off a lot of questions which I've answered many times in the past, or I could find out - on here - that I'm far from unique, and draw strength from that.

Jonathan really does seem to think that this my only port of call. I have absolutely no idea why, but he's persistent, isn't he? I'm not sure that he can be swayed by any assurances on my part that I really do have a decent handle on this, and that his contributions are unhelpful, to say the least.

But thank you for the platform, Arlo. It's helped tremendously and I hope this slight hijack by a single member won't put people off this kind of discussion in the future.

Re: Anonymous log-in facility

J G Wray — Tue, 14 Dec 2010 18:48:40 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"] In that post I gave the telephone number for Vetlife[/quote]

Mr Russell,

Thank you for pointing this out. I apologise for my oversight on the part of your contribution. Is there anyone else who pointed out any other sources of professional advice and who I should also apologise to for offending?

[quote user="Bob Russell"]I am not sure what your problem is but one day you may (sadly) learn a few truths about depression/mental illness - hopefully you will never need to find out![/quote]

Thank you for the sentiment. If I do, I doubt I'll ask a vet though.

Regs

JGW

Re: Anonymous log-in facility

Bob Russell — Tue, 14 Dec 2010 18:17:41 GMT

[quote user="Jonathan Wray"]

Dear Mr J,

You're clearly the "Big J"

Where are you going to be when An-On is going through a sticky patch? Nowhere if you don't know who they are. On the other hand the VSHPS backed by the VBF geared to dealing with confidentiality and availability will be.

http://www.vetlife.org.uk

To all those who offered anecdote, why did no one point this out?

JGW

[/quote]

I posted the first reply to this question. I have no problems admitting that I had severe problems but these were years ago. It was a frightening experience but I came out the other side a lot more aware of my limits, not to mention a heck of a change to priorities. In that post I gave the telephone number for Vetlife so please do not accuse anyone of not pointing out the contact details for professional support.

I am not sure what your problem is but one day you may (sadly) learn a few truths about depression/mental illness - hopefully you will never need to find out!

Re: Anonymous log-in facility

stephen sargent — Tue, 14 Dec 2010 18:17:18 GMT

I'm sorry, I didn't really mean to start a heated argument. I was not intending to critisise the availablity or use of anonymous posting, merely that as it was, it potentially allowed non members access to the site. Arlo has now rectified this. Problem solved!

Re: Anonymous log-in facility

Bob Russell — Tue, 14 Dec 2010 18:02:28 GMT

[quote user="Jonathan Wray"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]It's discussion threads like this one that I think anonymous login is valuable for.[/quote]

You've got to be kidding. The correct people to give this contributor medical and psychiatric advice are their doctors, not ether based veterinary surgeons. The rest of the thread is shared experience from others who have been through the grind. They don't post anonymously ergo....

JGW

[/quote]

No one is giving direct medical advice but in the posts are comments offering support and advising the poster to get and follow medical advice. Sharing experiences can be very helpful especially as depression is a very isolating condition. Lucky you if you have avoided it so far!

Re: Anonymous log-in facility

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 14 Dec 2010 17:41:38 GMT

Arlo I notice you haven't taken up my challenge on tongue-twisters

Wynne

Re: Anonymous log-in facility

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 14 Dec 2010 17:35:20 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Notice Arlo, I restrained myself to 1 exclamation mark[/quote]