Reporting caesarian sections

Re: Reporting caesarian sections

Virginia Campbell — Sun, 16 Jan 2011 20:14:52 GMT

[quote user="Laurence Webb"]Bitches would need to be microchipped to avoid substituting mothers.[/quote]

Yes...what's the betting that if mandatory C-section reporting is brought in without the requirement for microchipping+DNA testing dam and pups, we'll start seeing some unusually large KC registered litters...half of whom look nothing like mummy.

Re: Reporting caesarian sections

jd2008 — Fri, 14 Jan 2011 04:14:26 GMT

[quote user="Simon Neuhoff"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Lucky you to have good breeders. We do have a few 'occasional' breeders who listen (generally after getting lots of lousy advice from other breeders) but the majority of 'regular' breeders know far more about everything than I apparently do!

The rest of them trust the rubbish spoken by other breeders and cannot be educated. They need the threat of a bl**dy big stick to get them to comply.

[/quote]

Many clients are like this too - "the breeder said...." They will say that "The breeder has been breeding these dog for 25 years....." - I have to bite my tongue from pointing out that, at a basic level, breeding amounts to simply putting two animals of opposite sexes and compatible species in the same space and allowing what comes naturally! It hardly requires any form of qualification or experience or knowledge. One of my pet hates.

[/quote]

I have a favourite saying. Not sure where it originally came from: 'Taking veterinary advice from a breeder is akin to taking gynaecological advice from a pimp'

Re: Reporting caesarian sections

Alan Tevendale — Thu, 13 Jan 2011 19:35:26 GMT

Glad to hear your wife is fine. You should read 'Trust me I'm (still) a doctor' by Dr Phil Hammond. A good read regarding the NHS. We had some good discussions about all this between myself, my father (retired ENT surgeon) and my mother (retired midwife & coronary care nurse).

Re: Reporting caesarian sections

Bob Russell — Thu, 13 Jan 2011 17:57:32 GMT

She is fine and was treated very well in hospital once she was admitted, thank you! She has just lost confidence in the NHS. Her opinion is that for non-life threatening conditions the NHS is bordering on third world!

A+E was a shock and she was freezing in the hospital gown because they had run out of blankets and she had to huddle under our coats!

She has been used to private medicine abroad so she expects the doctor to jump to it when there are problems! Now realises the reality of the UK.The NHS is still a service industry just one with variable quality.

Re: Reporting caesarian sections

Alan Tevendale — Thu, 13 Jan 2011 17:17:16 GMT

Good service, in my mind, must include dealing with complaints in an efficient and professional manner. Maybe I should write to the hosptial to complain about the service my father has had or would I just be creating more paperwork to keep their administrators in a job. The local MP might be a better outlet for any potential complaint.

Professional service industry might not sound great but is probably as good a description as we could hope for.

Hope your wife is ok Bob

Re: Reporting caesarian sections

Bob Russell — Thu, 13 Jan 2011 17:10:25 GMT

[quote user="Alan Tevendale"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

The BVA appear to have put up quite a robust defence of stronger controls and should a case ever come to court under the AWA the magistrate/judge may well consider there is a case to answer.

As far as the comments about us being a service industry, my response is of course we are, as are doctors, dentists, solicitors etc, etc. We all serve the population.

We must make sure that we serve in an ethical and professional manner. That is what a true professional is!

Act like a shop and expect the respect that a shop gets!

[/quote]

Although I agree with you on most of this point Bob I think there is a significant difference between us private practitioners on one side and state funded practitioners on the other (doctors etc). Are they truely a service industry? Maybe I'm a little biased at the moment as my father is currently in hospital with a fractured hip and only on the 4th day of hospitalisation were either my mother or I told anything about what had been done to him by a doctor. Previously to that the nurses were only able to tell us that he had had surgery and it had been successful.

Can you imagine how your clients would react if they were treated in that manner?

I guess I am just reinforcing your point 'act like a shop and expect the respect that a shop gets!'.

Sorry to go off thread a litlte just felt like a rant

[/quote]

Unfortunately as my wife found to her cost recently our GP surgery clearly does not give a toss about patients. They are just providing a poor level of service because they have a captive audience and no competition.

After sending in a written complaint to our local surgery we have so far received a 'holding' letter telling us the matter was to be looked into (10 days after they received letter) and nearly a month on no further communication.

The few complaints we have received here over the last 10 years are dealt with one hell of a lot more efficiently than this.

We are not a shop but perhaps should be classified as a professional service industry! (sounds a bit dodgy tho'!)

Re: Reporting caesarian sections

Alan Tevendale — Thu, 13 Jan 2011 16:52:21 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

The BVA appear to have put up quite a robust defence of stronger controls and should a case ever come to court under the AWA the magistrate/judge may well consider there is a case to answer.

As far as the comments about us being a service industry, my response is of course we are, as are doctors, dentists, solicitors etc, etc. We all serve the population.

We must make sure that we serve in an ethical and professional manner. That is what a true professional is!

Act like a shop and expect the respect that a shop gets!

[/quote]

Can you imagine how your clients would react if they were treated in that manner?

I guess I am just reinforcing your point 'act like a shop and expect the respect that a shop gets!'.

Sorry to go off thread a litlte just felt like a rant

Re: Reporting caesarian sections

Bob Russell — Thu, 13 Jan 2011 12:58:42 GMT

The BVA appear to have put up quite a robust defence of stronger controls and should a case ever come to court under the AWA the magistrate/judge may well consider there is a case to answer.

As far as the comments about us being a service industry, my response is of course we are, as are doctors, dentists, solicitors etc, etc. We all serve the population.

We must make sure that we serve in an ethical and professional manner. That is what a true professional is!

Act like a shop and expect the respect that a shop gets!

Re: Reporting caesarian sections

Jon Bray — Thu, 13 Jan 2011 11:55:21 GMT

One advantage of bringing this in at RCVS rather than BVA level is that unless it is across the board Breeders will just move to a Vet who isn't as concerned about the issue - and some vets will be placed under pressure from their bosses not to rock the boat as a result.

It would also be easier for vets to tell a difficult client "I'm sorry, but to caesar your dog without reporting it is a breach of the GTPC and could get me struck off" rather than, effectively "I don't trust you not to do the same thing again next time, so I'm personally refusing to caesar your dog unless you let me report it".

One could argue that repeated breeding from a bitch knowing that a caesar will be required as a result is illegal under the AWA - it is failing to take care to avoid unnecessary suffering.

Re: Reporting caesarian sections

Vikki Halliday LLB — Wed, 08 Dec 2010 14:02:06 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

While it is certainly easy to recognise this stereotype, not all breeders are the same.

[/quote]

Couldn't agree more.

The problem is that whilst we remain a service industry, (oh yes we are, otherwise we would all be out of business), we are in a position that requires us not only to do the best for individual animals but comply where possible with the wishes of the client.

Yes there are unscrupulous breeders out there, just like there are poorly competent vets, but we should not tar every one with the same brush. Whilst we earn a living from these breeders, we cannot also police the "market". That needs a separate body with regulatory powers, and the only one that comes close is DEFRA. However the issue of dog breeding is not one that DEFRA will want to touch as it could be a political "hot potato" with any goverment influence appearing to be the nanny state interfering.

However as vets, yes I do not disagree that we are well placed to deliver opinion and advice on welfare with relation to certain breeds and their propagation. Yes we are also as vets obligated to a certain degree to protect the welfare of individual animals, however "animals under my care" does not necessarily extend to the future generations of dogs from certain genetic lines. The attitude of the veterinary profession as a whole needs to change, from "we are right and if you don't listen to us then we will not deal with you", to "perhaps we have a point, and in future we may feel morally obliged to refuse services under certain circumstances unless you enter into a dialogue with us".

We are not, nor do I ever wish to be, the welfare police, and we cannot make the decisions that legislation should do on a small scale. Civilisations have fallen because dictatorial attitudes would not listen to the populus. If people are prepared to pay for these "genetic freaks" as some have termed them, then who are we to spoil their enjoyment of an animal that to us is a walking A-Z of inherited disease, but to the owner is a character who fills their lives and empties their bank balance?

Cynical I may be, but I am not sure I want to bite the hand that feeds me just yet.

Re: Reporting caesarian sections

Clive Ansell — Wed, 08 Dec 2010 13:53:29 GMT

Ex RVN as far as I know. She was previously caught being involved with insurance fraud too, so jumped before being pushed I think. Our profession is better off without her I guess.

Re: Reporting caesarian sections

Bob Russell — Wed, 08 Dec 2010 13:07:09 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

It is refreshing to know that there are some good breeders' out there who are responsible and want to do things properly, but I think they are a small minority.

I recently came across an ex RVN who breeds Persian cats, and despite DNA testing showing that some of her cats carry the gene for Polycystic kidney disease, she still breeds and sells the offspring before clinical signs develop. If the knowledge being obtained from the testing was being used to breed out the affected genes I would be 100% supportive of course, but these kittens are sold "tested for PKD"

[/quote]

Is she an ex-RVN or an RVN that is no longer in practice? Selling kittens 'tested for PKD' where the results are known positive in this manner might lead to a trip before the DC!

Re: Reporting caesarian sections

Clive Ansell — Wed, 08 Dec 2010 12:50:36 GMT

It is refreshing to know that there are some good breeders' out there who are responsible and want to do things properly, but I think they are a small minority.

Re: Reporting caesarian sections

Simon Neuhoff — Wed, 08 Dec 2010 11:23:28 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

The rest of them trust the rubbish spoken by other breeders and cannot be educated. They need the threat of a bl**dy big stick to get them to comply.

[/quote]

Re: Reporting caesarian sections

Bob Russell — Wed, 08 Dec 2010 10:06:59 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]Dream on - Almost all the Breeders' I have had the misfortune to have to deal with have had no genuine interest in their "beloved" breed whatsoever. They moan about, and want as cheap a veterinary service as possible, and want to sell as many puppies as possible at the maximum price. [/quote]

While it is certainly easy to recognise this stereotype, not all breeders are the same.

As part of our practice, we run a Fertility and assisted reproduction service and hold breeders meetings/symposia once or twice a year. Most of the clients/delegates are thoughtful, intelligent and remarkably well informed breeders who breed relatively infrequently and want to do it right. The most common reason for importing semen and doing AI is the breeders desire to increase the gene pool and these people have often done huge amounts of research and are willing to pay appropriately for good advice/ veterinary care. Admittedly, there are not many of them, but they are out there and regrettably, some of the veterinary advice they are given is open to question. ("You can't do AI in dogs, and anyway importing semen is illeagal"; "There is no point doing DNA testing, it is all experimental and a waste of money"; Those are the worst hips I have seen, don't even think of breeding with that" - said of rads taken of a (fully conscious) 6mth rottweiller with normal immature hips - subsequently scored 0:0)

[/quote]

The rest of them trust the rubbish spoken by other breeders and cannot be educated. They need the threat of a bl**dy big stick to get them to comply.

Re: Reporting caesarian sections

Malcolm Ness — Wed, 08 Dec 2010 08:47:13 GMT

While it is certainly easy to recognise this stereotype, not all breeders are the same.

Re: Reporting caesarian sections

Clive Ansell — Tue, 07 Dec 2010 19:32:11 GMT

[quote user="Vikki Halliday"]

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

In the interests of animal welfare how about the profession going one stage further and saying "where we carry out a C-section on an animal of a breed that cannot whelp naturally such as a Bulldog then the bitch will be speyed at the same time no ifs, no buts, c-section with spey, go elsewhere, or PTS"

[/quote]

I think we have a duty to the individual animal's welfare yes, but if breeders are properly forwarned of the risks, are prepared to pay adequate surgical fees, and generally made aware that this breed are morally questionable, then why are we trying to behave like welfare police?

[/quote]

I agree we are not the welfare police or the morality police and nor should we be, but we are the profession and we should be leading the way. At the moment it appears the profession supports and condones, and some would argue encourages, the practice of breeding genetically flawed and deformed, dysfunctional dogs.

The other thing we could do of course is to educate the public in to owning a cross breed rescued from a dogs' home rather than squandering £100's or even £1000's on a pedigree heap of mutant genes. If the demand stops, breeders' would not be able to peddle their heaps of genetic junk.

[quote user="Vikki Halliday"]

If I were a breeder I'd want a more sympathetic discussion with my vet about the problem, and try to breed away from the perpetual problem, rather than simply exterminate the breed.

[/quote]

Dream on - Almost all the Breeders' I have had the misfortune to have to deal with have had no genuine interest in their "beloved" breed whatsoever. They moan about, and want as cheap a veterinary service as possible, and want to sell as many puppies as possible at the maximum price.

If we are unable (or unwilling in the case of many breeders') to breed them back to some form of normality, rather than the hideous heap of genetic defects they currently are, then some of the breeds probably should become extinct if we are really serious about championing animal welfare - Builldog and Shar Pei spring to mind.

Re: Reporting caesarian sections

Simon Neuhoff — Tue, 07 Dec 2010 18:53:07 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Blanket ban would be easier in theory to enforce. This was not put forward as a genuine solution to the problem but only as a potentially more enforcible option!

As for Vikki's comment - since when have vets been able to reason with breeders? If breeders had listened to the opinions of the majority of vets the bulldog would not exist, the Shar Pei would be a relic of history and probably cavaliers would have brains that fit in their head!

I have long-since given up trying to reason with breeders. I have dealt with them since before going to university and have yet to find a professional breeder that genuinely has much of a clue about breed health problems (slight exaggeration only!).

If the KC want to stop the breeding of monsters the rules need to be clear, simple and enforcible. It ain't gonna happen.

[/quote]

Bob I agree with you in general - I would say I have encountered two or three breeders who are generally decent people motivated to deal with their breed's specific problems. The thing is that their efforts simply get swamped in the general atmosphere of greed or ignorance or lack of concern.

Re: Reporting caesarian sections

Bob Russell — Tue, 07 Dec 2010 16:13:57 GMT

Blanket ban would be easier in theory to enforce. This was not put forward as a genuine solution to the problem but only as a potentially more enforcible option!

If the KC want to stop the breeding of monsters the rules need to be clear, simple and enforcible. It ain't gonna happen.

Re: Reporting caesarian sections

Kate Richardson — Tue, 07 Dec 2010 15:36:03 GMT

I haven't read the BVA/BSAVA guidelines as yet, but can someone explain why puppies delivered by caesarian shouldn't be registered? I assume this is to deter breeders from repeatedly breeding from a bitch who requires multiple caesars, but surely 1 caesarian should be acceptable as any bitch could have complications; breeding again from these bitches should be deterred, but I can't understand how not allowing these puppies to be registered will help.

Re: Reporting caesarian sections

Vikki Halliday LLB — Tue, 07 Dec 2010 14:52:18 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

[/quote]

And Belgian Blue cattle, Beltex sheep......? Where would you stop?

If I were a breeder I'd want a more sympathetic discussion with my vet about the problem, and try to breed away from the perpetual problem, rather than simply exterminate the breed.

Re: Reporting caesarian sections

Clive Ansell — Tue, 07 Dec 2010 13:37:25 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

[/quote]

Good in principle but the argument about owners holding out longer before going to a vet than they otherwise would probably be raised.

Has my vote though!!!

[/quote]

I don't know. Breeders' know how valuable their puppies are and they know if left too long they are more likely to die. If there is >£10,000 of puppies they will want a c-section pdq.

Re: Reporting caesarian sections

Bob Russell — Tue, 07 Dec 2010 13:27:55 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

[/quote]

Good in principle but the argument about owners holding out longer before going to a vet than they otherwise would probably be raised.

Has my vote though!!!

Re: Reporting caesarian sections

Clive Ansell — Tue, 07 Dec 2010 13:24:52 GMT

Re: Reporting caesarian sections

Bob Russell — Tue, 07 Dec 2010 13:00:36 GMT

How about the KC refusing to register ANY puppy delivered by caesarian?

Not going to be particularly reliable as the breeder would be the one certifying but probably as good as trying to get us to work out if a bitch has had two or more caesars.

Puppies would still be saleable to the pet market probably without a significant drop in price!

Would a genuine good breeder hold out for normal delivery where a vet recommends a caesarian? I doubt it and those that do have no right to be breeding dogs!