Illegally Docked Puppies

Re: Illegally Docked Puppies

Bob Russell — Mon, 29 Nov 2010 13:33:39 GMT

Funnily enough all the illegally docked puppies we have seen were bought from gypsies. I know we do have a population of travellers in the New Forest but I find it hard to blame them for any or all of the illegal docking - most of their Jack Russells seem to have tails!!!

Re: Illegally Docked Puppies

Colin Cameron — Mon, 29 Nov 2010 13:31:28 GMT

[quote user="Catherine Williams"]Couldn't get a straight answer from anyone what it means for my owner having a pup that is illegally docked [/quote]

The law, I believe is not exactly specific on this except that any owner of a docked dog must be able to provide evidence that the docking was carried out legally. The only practical way for this is to have a certificate from the vet doing the docking, otherwise action could, in theory, be taken against said owner. My advice to such owners is to make several attempts to obtain a certificate and to record all these attempts. At least they can then show the powers that be that they did all they could.

One problem with the current situation is that action can only be taken against an individual and not a group. So when a breeder docks their own puppies and is questioned the whole family refuse to say who did the actual docking so although it is known that they did it no action can be taken. This has happened in a recent case here in Devon and it is damned frustrating.

Re: Illegally Docked Puppies

Catherine Williams — Mon, 29 Nov 2010 11:16:23 GMT

I've had a few illegally docked dogs and generally the response from owners has been complete disinterest.

I had one case of a pup where the docking paperwork was not in order (the docking vet had signed but the breeder hadn't). I was supposed to chip + sign the papers and was very wary getting involved. Asked both the VDS + RCVS for advice, the RCVS were very keen to jump on the vet involved for false certification, the VDS were helpful but I didn't realise there were so many issues- I couldn't go direct to the vet involved but had to talk to the breeder to get their consent to talk to their vet....felt rather going round the houses. By 2nd vaccination a correct certificate had appeared.

Couldn't get a straight answer from anyone what it means for my owner having a pup that is illegally docked - still not sure on that one

Re: Illegally Docked Puppies

ms1083 — Sun, 28 Nov 2010 20:52:44 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]We have no role in enforcement here and we open a huge can of worms. I can think of one illegally docked dog I say and I explained the system to the owners. It's not our place to report it, [/quote]

I take your approach - educating the owner (carefully, as its not their fault) of the current regulations and suggest they contact the breeder for the certificate. I believe this has the added effect of breeders hearing feedback that the profession does care, and notice illegally docked animals. I too have not yet seen a puppy docked by the current owner.

However, if we don't report it who will? Personally if I do ever come into contact with an owner who has, themselves, illegally docked their dog then I will report them (with VDS & RCVS advice first) as not only have they comitted an offence with regard to docking but they have carred out an act of veterinary surgery without being a member of the RCVS. If nobody reports dockers then docking will continue, I never imagine police will start stopping dog walkers asking for their docking certificate.

Re: Illegally Docked Puppies

Victoria Gibson — Sun, 28 Nov 2010 20:19:46 GMT

Another thing that comes down to lack of education of the general public - most know nothing of the regulations. I see quite a few that have been docked as 'working dogs' which the breeder had always intended to sell as pets. We have quite a few enquiries about docking but we refuse. There are obviously still some vets willing to do it and to accept the lies that the breeders tell them !

Re: Illegally Docked Puppies

Alan Tevendale — Sun, 28 Nov 2010 18:10:36 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

So long as the vet keeps copies of all the certificates they issue [we certainly do] then it's not their problem, it the person falsifying documents who is at fault.

[/quote]

I'm with you on that one Michael. We would certainly keep all copies of any certifcate that we produced - for whatever the reason. But wouldn't you want to know that one of your clients was producing false documents with your name on them.

Re: Illegally Docked Puppies

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 28 Nov 2010 17:51:18 GMT

We are not the police. We have no role in enforcement here and we open a huge can of worms. I can think of one illegally docked dog I say and I explained the system to the owners. It's not our place to report it, where do we stand breaking confidentially - think we'd be on dodgy ground. What next, flagging down speeding motorists?

[quote user="Alan Tevendale"]The worrying thing, apart from the illegal docking, was that it would appear that the breeder was photocopying a certificate produced correctly by some unsuspecting vet and now his name was going to be associated with these illegal dockings.

After that maybe contacting the vet to let him know what is happening in his name.[/quote]

So long as the vet keeps copies of all the certificates they issue [we certainly do] then it's not their problem, it the person falsifying documents who is at fault.

Re: Illegally Docked Puppies

Alan Tevendale — Sun, 28 Nov 2010 17:19:39 GMT

A colleague of mine saw a couple of pups in for 1st vaccination this week which had been docked. The new owner had all the paperwork the breeder had given them which included the docking certificates. Both of which were photocopies with identical chip numbers. Neither pup was chipped. The owners didn't seem to know anything about the regulations etc so again suspect breeder 'getting shot of pups pretty quick to unsuspecting buyers'.

The worrying thing, apart from the illegal docking, was that it would appear that the breeder was photocopying a certificate produced correctly by some unsuspecting vet and now his name was going to be associated with these illegal dockings.

I'm not entirely sure what my colleague will do with this information but I suspect the VDS would be a good place to start. After that maybe contacting the vet to let him know what is happening in his name.

Re: Illegally Docked Puppies

Vikki Halliday LLB — Sun, 28 Nov 2010 16:10:38 GMT

I have unfortunately seen too many.

Firstly in the North of England, where some controlled docking of dogs is still legal, but have seen docked Rotties, Shi Tzu's, Lhasa Apsos, Jack Russells, (where there was no intention of working and they were definatiely not done legally), Springers, Cockers and Boxers.

Frankly the legislation has made little difference in some areas, and although I have yet to be presented with a dog that I suspect has been docked by the current owner, I do advise all the owners of the dogs presented to me that they have an illegally docked dog, and questions may well be asked by RSPCA or similar Inspectors if they are spotted at e.g. a local dog show or country fair.

The reaction has ranged from shock, horror and disbelief in some owners, who have then assured me they had no idea and they will report the breeder themselves, (hmmm), to abject rebuttal that there is anything wrong with the procedure, and statements such as "they look much better docked", which have left me shaking my head whilst comparing it to cutting off the thumbs of their children.

I now work in Scotland where it is totally illegal, and still see the odd docked dog, most recently a boxer pup allegedly purchased in the South of Ireland. Most owners are horrified when I tell them it is illegal ( or they are damn good actors!), and the one from Ireland just accepted it with a shrug as "they still allow over there".

I would report anyone whom I had proof owned and carried out the procedure, however I have yet to be convinced that I have enough evidence that I have met that person. Most breeders that carry out illegal docking appear to get shot of the pups pretty quick to unsuspecting buyers.