So what else can you do with your degree?

Re: So what else can you do with your degree?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 01 Dec 2010 21:51:20 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]Unforeseen vacancies that require locum cover can be extremely expensive [/quote]

Agreed. But you will have 6 months notice for maternity leave - hardly unforseen! And I'm not talking about a 2 week locum - I'm talking about a 6-12 month position.

Re: So what else can you do with your degree?

Julian Earl — Wed, 01 Dec 2010 21:45:15 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

Locum rates tend to even out when you take out sick pay, holiday pay etc so as not to be massively more expensive than standard pay.

[/quote]

That is very different to my experience. Unforeseen vacancies that require locum cover can be extremely expensive compared to "normal" rates, especially if accommodation has to be found (and paid for!); this applies to nurses as much as vets, so much so that they are tending to price themselves out of the market except for short-term gaps. Most locums that we have had have been extremely good and very capable, with the odd dubious exception, but they are, like it or not, an unknown face of unknown capability which not every client appreciates.

Re: So what else can you do with your degree?

Vikki Halliday LLB — Wed, 01 Dec 2010 19:18:08 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

then she is helping to raise the next generation. Someone has to! And will probably go back into the workforce at some point - she may even cover holidays and antisocial hours for her practice. Bonus.

[/quote]

Hurrah, I'm with you on that one Gillian, as I have done precisely that for other practices before setting up my own.

Re: So what else can you do with your degree?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 01 Dec 2010 17:56:35 GMT

Simple. Don't employ women. Make them stay home and cook the tea. Sorted.

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]but if she takes maternity leave-and then leaves !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/quote]

Re: So what else can you do with your degree?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 01 Dec 2010 17:33:48 GMT

Wren is obviously dedicated and loyal at the moment, or she wouldn't even have considered doing that export job-but if she takes maternity leave-and then leaves !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wynne

Re: So what else can you do with your degree?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 01 Dec 2010 17:28:40 GMT

Locum rates tend to even out when you take out sick pay, holiday pay etc so as not to be massively more expensive than standard pay.

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]you can only claim statutory maternity pay,not true cost of relacement cover from Inland Revenue[/quote]

I have obviously had a different experience of maternity leave. It is inconvenient and requires you to do a bit more recruiting and faffing, and certainly costs a few quid, but generally I haven't found it as difficult as you. I have also gained two dedicated, loyal, settled and flexible members of staff. Maybe these rumours of people being treated badly after giving their employers their 'good' news are true afterall - good luck Wren! Hope your employers see it as the good news that it is......

Re: So what else can you do with your degree?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 01 Dec 2010 17:20:41 GMT

In the case of nurses-a choice between paying overtime rates to existing staff so as to cover hours, or taking on a temp-who if a QVN or ANA will probably need locum rates, for a temporary position, and if lay staff will take a while to fully pull her weight.

In the case of a veterinary surgeon-paying locum rates for a replacement-very few practices are so overstaffed to be able to cope with 1 down for that length of time-you can only claim statutory maternity pay,not true cost of relacement cover from Inland Revenue

Wynne

Re: So what else can you do with your degree?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 01 Dec 2010 17:11:23 GMT

I have been the one on maternity leave and employed two nurses who have had children. I am well aware of the costs - which are pretty small. I wouldn't have asked if I wasn't curious why you feel it is so bad.....would love to have a proper answer instead of a sarcastic retort....

Re: So what else can you do with your degree?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 01 Dec 2010 17:01:43 GMT

Gillian Wren was obviously worried what would happen if she refused-or she wouldn't even have asked the question.

If you can't work out for yourself how expensive maternity leave is for the employer, then obviously you're the one who has never employed a woman of child-bearing age !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wynne

Re: So what else can you do with your degree?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 01 Dec 2010 16:55:37 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]your employers have behaved very badly in even expecting you to give up a week-end off for export certification[/quote]

I read that thread very differently - from what I could tell, Wren was never asked by her employers - the question she asked was what to do if they did.....Maybe they didn't expect anything after all.....

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]-I also know I would be VERY annoyed if an employee put me to the enormous inconvenience and expense of maternity leave-and then left[/quote]

So in what way is maternity leave enormously inconvenient and expensive for you? Do you not employ women of child-bearing age?

Re: So what else can you do with your degree?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 01 Dec 2010 16:45:06 GMT

I have to second, Bob Gillian, and Richard-running your own practice is hard work, although I think it enormously rewarding-and when it comes to your own income it's the left-overs (after everyone else has been paid ) you'll have to live on. Binding-out clauses may be unenforcable-but the fact that your employers have behaved very badly in even expecting you to give up a week-end off for export certification doesn't justify you behaving badly in breaking a contract which you signed voluntarily-I also know I would be VERY annoyed if an employee put me to the enormous inconvenience and expense of maternity leave-and then left

Wynne

Re: So what else can you do with your degree?

Richard Carter — Wed, 01 Dec 2010 10:28:54 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]setting up a brand new business (any business) will take up an awful lot of your time, whether you do your own on-call or not. It takes many months (possibly years) to establish yourself to the point where you have a reliably good wage[/quote]

Have to second Gillian - if it is your business then it really is your problem - from the veterinary work, through all the client/ staffing matters, the legal bits, the RCVS and their 'requirements', the financials, right down to the advertising in the phone book and which drugs to keep on the shelf. So can be long hours, you take your salary after everyone else including the refuse collection (everything in its correct little bag with label). If you think you might not be able to spare the time now as an assistant especially if you thinking of a family, then whoever is partnering your venture will need to be very reliable.

Re: So what else can you do with your degree?

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 30 Nov 2010 23:09:06 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]My current contract has a clause about not working within X miles of the current practice. I've no real wish to antagonise my boss but I've heard that these clauses can't be enforced?[/quote]

Are you a member of the BVA? Their legal advice line is very good for questions like that!

[quote user="Wren"]Is there still finance available for starting up a small business or has that all disappeared in the last couple of years. [/quote]

Business Link Yorkshire are the people to speak to about all this. They run a lot of evening courses that are usually free to attend. I have been to a couple of they website courses. They will know if there are any grants available.

[quote user="Wren"]Oh, and one more question! I'd probably like to have kids sometime and am not getting any younger. I'm guessing that this would be much better done whilst employed?[/quote]

Oh yes - breed now.

Re: So what else can you do with your degree?

Bob Russell — Tue, 30 Nov 2010 17:52:41 GMT

Binding out clauses are difficult or impossible to enforce especially if covering large distances or long periods however there is the moral element to consider. A practice may have built up a client base over years and partners may have paid for it (sometimes through the nose!) so I suggest you at least take this into account.

Having said that equine clients can be remarkably fickle and more than a few are quite happy to move their bad debts from one practice to another!

If the practice is considering giving up equine work the good-will should be relatively inexpensive.

Re: So what else can you do with your degree?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 30 Nov 2010 17:48:56 GMT

Wren

Sorry but I'm going to give you an honest answer - I really don't think setting up on your own is going to work for you. I can completely understand you want to maintain a decent work-life balance, but setting up a brand new business (any business) will take up an awful lot of your time, whether you do your own on-call or not. It takes many months (possibly years) to establish yourself to the point where you have a reliably good wage every month and initially you have to accept long hours (which can be one call at 8am and another at 7pm - when you need the money the client gets to dictate!) and poor renumeration compared to what you get as an assistant. It is worth the hard work but but takes a few years of dedication first. I did it (with my husband), as well as having 2 very small children, but I wouldn't have wanted to do it on my own at that stage in my life.

There is lots of finance available (banks love vets) but all loans - no grants. You are also going to need a deposit - we had to find 20% of start-up costs.

You will have a lot more admin to get used to - as an assistant you have no idea how much admin there is to do! Unless your business is very quiet, you have to do this in your own time.

I'm really not trying to put you off forever - working for myself is great - I would never go back to being an assistant! But if you are looking for a job that is better paid, better hours and amenable to becoming a mum (which is what you seem to be saying) I very much doubt ownership will give you all those things initially - it takes a few years of hard graft to get them!

If you do decide to go for it then I'm happy to offer any advice I can.....have learnt a fair few lessons in the last few years....

Re: So what else can you do with your degree?

Joyce Whitehead — Tue, 30 Nov 2010 16:03:58 GMT

Have you thought about looking for part time work with other practices in the area Wren? It is really difficult to find part time or locum experienced equine vets - so you could write to practices outwith your exclusion area. I did this when my children were small and had no problem finding small animal part time work that I could fit in with family life - you could fit it with your equine interests! We have a part time equine/sa vet who does some competitive show jumping amongst other things when not working for us.

On the other questions - yes being an employee is easier (and you would get more pay) when pregnant from the maternity pay point of view. I had also heard that "binding out clauses" are hard to enforce.

Re: So what else can you do with your degree?

Mark Holmes — Tue, 30 Nov 2010 15:26:39 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]

Oh, and one more question! I'd probably like to have kids sometime and am not getting any younger. I'm guessing that this would be much better done whilst employed?

[/quote]

Yes if you want maternity leave!

Re: So what else can you do with your degree?

Wren — Tue, 30 Nov 2010 14:31:07 GMT

Oh, and one more question! I'd probably like to have kids sometime and am not getting any younger. I'm guessing that this would be much better done whilst employed?

Re: So what else can you do with your degree?

Wren — Tue, 30 Nov 2010 14:25:30 GMT

Hi. Sorry, I've been off-line for a few days but thanks for all the helpful replies and there's definitely one or two suggestions that I'll look into. I think I'd like to keep working in the veterinary line but maybe be self-employed - either a one-man-band ambulatory practice (specialising in dentistry?) or something similar. I've found myself thinking back to someone I met a few years ago who gave up general practice and set up in sheep AIing. He works like mad in the late summer and autumn but pretty much takes the rest of the year off. Now that's an extreme example (and I have no wish to AI sheep for the rest of my llife!) but you can probably catch my drift.

OK, so say I (theoretically!) set up on my own. Could someone help me with a few questions please?

1) My current contract has a clause about not working within X miles of the current practice. I've no real wish to antagonise my boss but I've heard that these clauses can't be enforced?

2) I suspect that if I left my current job my boss might not be desperate to continue with equine work. Would it then be an idea to consider buying the goodwill of the equine side and thence having an instant client base - most of whom will have known me (as their vet) for years?

3) How do single-handed practitioners manage days off, on-call and CPD? I have no desire to do my own on-call 24/7/365 and can't even envisage having to be within 20 mins of the practice for the rest of my life. Would approaching a local equine hospital about my OOH work be an option? I've always fancied doing some further qualifications (say the BEVA dentistry course or a CertGP(Equine)) but my current practice isn't really interested in funding anything like this.

4) As a truly ambulatory practitioner could I run my business from home initially? I assume I'd need someone to be in to receive drug orders etc. so would I need some sort of support staff from the start? Or would I still need premises somewhere?

5) Is there still finance available for starting up a small business or has that all disappeared in the last couple of years. I have no savings as my current wage barely covers the mortgage and bills etc.

Sorry for all the questions. Having coasted through life as an employee all this side of it is totally new to me!

Re: So what else can you do with your degree?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 29 Nov 2010 14:25:45 GMT

Well I've got rid of bosses, veterinary "colleagues" who are anything but, and am able to be selective in which clients I'll register-other than for genuine emergencies-still have the bank manager to deal with though

Wynne

Re: So what else can you do with your degree?

Bob Russell — Mon, 29 Nov 2010 13:25:28 GMT

Its generally not veterinary work we get fed up with but veterinary life!!

The pressures come from bosses, banks, other vets and of course the inconvenience of clients!!

Re: So what else can you do with your degree?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 29 Nov 2010 12:48:54 GMT

Wren Is it veterinary work you're fed up of....................... or your employers ?????????????????

I know I would be VERY annoyed , if when I was an assistant, I had been expected to give up a week-end off to do a non-urgent task................export certification !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not one animal would have been harmed if export had been delayed a few days-so they shouldn't have even asked you

Wynne

Re: So what else can you do with your degree?

Gina Dungworth — Mon, 29 Nov 2010 11:52:25 GMT

[quote user="Emma Middleton"]

the veterinary box, if you don't mind being office bound, is scientific writing (writing anything from patient information leaflets for drugs to scientific reports/abstracts for the research community) which is very well paid once you've got a couple of years experience and can do freelance/part time alongside something else. Usually a bachelor's degree is minimum requirement.

[/quote]

A lot of what you mention also comes under the heading of Medical Writing. EMWA (the European Medical Writers Association, http://www.emwa.org/) run some most excellent conferences and CPD as well as operating a freelancers list. There are a few UK based one or two day courses run independently of EMWA that are also well worth looking into.

Re: So what else can you do with your degree?

tess — Sat, 27 Nov 2010 14:04:09 GMT

I had quite a long career break with children ,then toyed with the idea of leaving veterinary work for ever. I ended up doing my citizens advice training. Yes it was voluntary work but it was really interesting, and it can often lead to paid employment with CAB- not a high salary by any means but it depends what your motivations are.

I eventually came full circle back to small animal practice part time.

Re: So what else can you do with your degree?

vs0u — Sat, 27 Nov 2010 00:03:41 GMT

I'm doing a masters in human parasitology, with a view to working in the tropics eventually. I absolutely love it! Wasn't sure how I'd get on studying after 4 years in practice but it's great. My veterinary degree has actually taught me a lot of useful stuff - all those first year modules I thought were irrelevant at the time, and especially all that peering down microscopes we had to do. Can't wait to go on and do a PhD. They are quite well paid - won't be that much worse off than vetting - especially as can still do a bit of locuming to keep my hand in. Have to say I don't really miss being a vet - although I miss my colleagues and it's nice to do an occasional shift. Anyway there's always the option to go back to it at any time. I think the worst thing you can do is keep on doing a job you don't like. The vet degree is so versatile - make the most of it.