Veterinary locum accommodation

Re: Veterinary locum accommodation

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 08 Nov 2010 13:50:25 GMT

Gillian If you go back 30 years, compare average veterinary fees then,and multiply by inflation, you will find that our fees are cheaper in real terms now, (in spite of accusations of 12 % inflation ) and veterinary profits have fallen when compared to average wages, so our position in the income table has also fallen

If people were prepared to pay those fees then, why aren't they prepared to pay the equivalent now ?

My theory is that it's because too many of us try to undercut and/or are ashamed of proper charging,because they haven't properly costed providing the service in the 1st place

Maybe because 30 years ago, far more , like me, came from a farming (small business ) background, we didn't confuse turnover with profit, so were more prepared to charge

Wynne

Re: Veterinary locum accommodation

bob lehner — Sat, 06 Nov 2010 18:23:05 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Admirable idealism Wynne but unfortunately earnings are based on a bit more than A level grades.[/quote]

Abso-bleeding-lutely! Look at the wretched pay for top scientists in this country. My son (even tho' I say it myself ) is a world-class molecular geneticist, but earns bugger-all compared to the half-wits in the City who just about destroyed civilisation as we know it.

Re: Veterinary locum accommodation

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 06 Nov 2010 16:20:08 GMT

Admirable idealism Wynne but unfortunately earnings are based on a bit more than A level grades. Ask the millionnaires at the stock exchange. Vets are limited by what people WILL pay. Saying they SHOULD pay more is pointless.

Re: Veterinary locum accommodation

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 05 Nov 2010 17:45:41 GMT

Yes Gillian I do feel that people who are more highly qualified should earn more

Wynne

Re: Veterinary locum accommodation

Mark Holmes — Fri, 05 Nov 2010 12:51:03 GMT

[quote user="Simon Neuhoff"]Mark, I am not sure about the practices which "swap" locums, it could be seen by HMRC as a deliberate move just to avoid taxation?[/quote]

Thats interesting, but then HMRC have nothing to gain by advising you to be tax efficient, try speaking to A Gibson taxation services 01494 893430, according to him HMRC are very good at advising grey areas as black or white to suit themselves and not what is in fact law.

In fact I would imagine HMRC are the last people to speak to on Tax advice otherwise Tax lawyers would not be so well paid. (sigh.... law I should have done law )

Re: Veterinary locum accommodation

Clive Ansell — Fri, 05 Nov 2010 10:54:30 GMT

I think it is a grey area, and if in one place for 4-6 months of the year HMRC might consider that you should be PAYE employed. Of course it is possible to be PAYE employed in one position and self employed in others. When I was an employed assistant I used to work on a self employed basis at an OOH clinic some weekends and nights.

Re: Veterinary locum accommodation

Simon Neuhoff — Fri, 05 Nov 2010 08:52:15 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

Yes, I have discussed it with HMRC and their line was if I stayed anywhere more than 3 months or so they would look on it as PAYE. Also, having your own professional membership and status, and indemnity insurance strenghtens self employed status.

Mark, I am not sure about the practices which "swap" locums, it could be seen by HMRC as a deliberate move just to avoid taxation?

[/quote]

Clive is this still true if you have regular locum positions where you spend say 4-6 months there over the course of a year?

Re: Veterinary locum accommodation

Clive Ansell — Fri, 05 Nov 2010 07:41:41 GMT

Mark, I am not sure about the practices which "swap" locums, it could be seen by HMRC as a deliberate move just to avoid taxation?

Re: Veterinary locum accommodation

Mark Holmes — Fri, 05 Nov 2010 00:02:40 GMT

As far as I understand from previous locuming as long as you work for a number of clinics you are able to claim self employment. I new of a couple of places who "swapped" "locums" occasionally to ensure this was clear.

Re: Veterinary locum accommodation

Simon Neuhoff — Thu, 04 Nov 2010 20:37:10 GMT

Clive as I understand it things are not so easy anymore. Should they challenge your status you may be declared to be PAYE. That said it is the practice then who is responsible for the unpaid tax rather than you.

Re: Veterinary locum accommodation

Clive Ansell — Thu, 04 Nov 2010 17:14:40 GMT

I'm a self employed sole trader locum, and have been so for 9 years without any problems or questions from HMRC. I too travel out to practices to provide a locum service. All invoices show my self assessment number, and a disclaimer which states that "I am responsible for any income tax or NI payments which become due", thus offering the practice protection too. I once looked at becoming a limited company, but could only see little benefit after having to pay to have annual accounsts audited etc. Maybe I should look again?

Re: Veterinary locum accommodation

Cat Henstridge — Thu, 04 Nov 2010 15:43:29 GMT

Hi Gillian,

To satisfy the taxman you are self employed there are certain things you should do, like dictating your own hours, using your own tools and being able to delegate tasks. This is fairly easy for a painter and decorator but not really for a locum vet who is likely to be told what hours to do and be using the practices tools.

This is why most locums are Limited Companies instead, it essentially adds an extra layer of protection for the practice so the nasty taxman can't demand they pay the locums NI and tax. I rather like it because I am therefore a director of a company traveling out to provide the clinics with my services, it sounds much better!

Cat

Re: Veterinary locum accommodation

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 04 Nov 2010 10:53:25 GMT

so what tax status does as tradesman have open to them that a vet doesn't?

Re: Veterinary locum accommodation

Simon Neuhoff — Thu, 04 Nov 2010 09:08:22 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

Self employed simply relates to the fact that you work for yourself - I wasn't referring to the actual status of the business. You could be a locum, sole charge, partner or a director of a limited company. You're still self employed.

[/quote]

Not being pedantic here Gillian - but from a tax perspective - and hence earning perspective - there is a big difference.

Re: Veterinary locum accommodation

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 03 Nov 2010 14:35:22 GMT

Re: Veterinary locum accommodation

Simon Neuhoff — Wed, 03 Nov 2010 13:08:17 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="macflea"]also the plumber can trade as self employed[/quote]

as can vets if they so choose

[/quote]

No longer true as I understand it. They are tighening up on it and I believe a number of practices have fallen foul of the rules just lately. You CAN be a limited company.

Re: Veterinary locum accommodation

Andrew Mellor — Wed, 03 Nov 2010 07:57:41 GMT

thanks for your replies, think I managed to open up a can of worms on this one.

Re: Veterinary locum accommodation

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 02 Nov 2010 22:01:53 GMT

[quote user="macflea"]also the plumber can trade as self employed[/quote]

as can vets if they so choose

[quote user="macflea"]doesnt have to worry about rcvs in london[/quote]

erm...well no....

Re: Veterinary locum accommodation

macflea — Tue, 02 Nov 2010 21:39:25 GMT

also the plumber can trade as self employed and doesnt have to worry about rcvs in london, two big ++++

Re: Veterinary locum accommodation

Simon Neuhoff — Tue, 02 Nov 2010 21:29:21 GMT

Gillian in the case of the plumber we used it was his own business, he is self employed. Parts etc are of course charged on top of that. I appreciate that he must have costs too - I do not think he is earning £50 per hour but I doubt hisoverheads amount to very much!

Re: Veterinary locum accommodation

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 02 Nov 2010 17:19:47 GMT

Maybe you need to check what a tradesman ACTUALLY earns before making assumptions.

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Why do so many in our profession feel they can't charge ??????????????? I don't even pretend to understand it !!!!!!!!!!!![/quote]

I have yet to meet a poor vet. We do charge. Maybe you feel we should earn more on the basis of good A level grades - I don't. The fact that you chose to go into a highly competitive career was up to you. £20 may feel like a small amount to you, and be popped onto a bill very easily. To a lot of people that is a large part of their disposable income. In the same way £700 + VAT may be the majority of that month's wages - leaving nothing for the mortgage. (Ask your nurses). It is easy to lose sight of what the average income is. And saying 'well if it was insured they wouldn't have to pay it all....' doesn't help - the pet owner still ends up paying in the end with much inflated premiums.

Re: Veterinary locum accommodation

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 02 Nov 2010 17:09:58 GMT

In other words, although the training for a veterinary surgeon is longer, and requires higher scholastic achievements, the electrician earns approximately twice as much !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why do so many in our profession feel they can't charge ??????????????? I don't even pretend to understand it !!!!!!!!!!!!

Wynne

Re: Veterinary locum accommodation

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 02 Nov 2010 17:04:17 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]You are getting charges and salary mixed up. If you charge £20 for a 10 minute consultation, does that mean you earn £120 per hour? Of course not. Perhaps a plumber/electrician has less overheads than us, but they still have travelling time, equipment, apprentices/colleagues, car, petrol etc etc etc to pay for!!!!!!![/quote]

I actually think a self employed locum vet and a self employed plumber/electrician are actually very similar in a lot of ways. I appreciate that the locum vet charging the practice £200/day isn't 'making' £200 a day because they have other costs to run their business (RCVS, insurance, vehicle, CDP). Very similar to the electricians, expect if he supplies materials he can mark them up and have an additional income stream from the client not available to the locum vet!

Re: Veterinary locum accommodation

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 02 Nov 2010 15:59:48 GMT

[quote user="Simon Neuhoff"]

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

The electrician I use charges £35/hour or £245/ 8 hour day!

A trained vet worth less?

[/quote]

Plumber charged us £50/hour - rounded UP hours not down and fielded a number of calls from other clients during the work.

[/quote]

You are getting charges and salary mixed up. If you charge £20 for a 10 minute consultation, does that mean you earn £120 per hour? Of course not. Perhaps a plumber/electrician has less overheads than us, but they still have travelling time, equipment, apprentices/colleagues, car, petrol etc etc etc to pay for!!!!!!!

Re: Veterinary locum accommodation

Simon Neuhoff — Tue, 02 Nov 2010 14:47:14 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

The electrician I use charges £35/hour or £245/ 8 hour day!

A trained vet worth less?

[/quote]

Plumber charged us £50/hour - rounded UP hours not down and fielded a number of calls from other clients during the work.

Locum work certainly has it's upsides. Having "been around the block" a bit I was able to fill all my time between three neighbouring practices for a 2 year period whilst staying at home. Best of both worlds, had all the continuity I wanted plus the ability to run away from clients or practice politics when they were starting to get on your nerves and the ability to dictate weekends and holidays. Eventually one practice convinced me to stay on as a permanent vet (and bettered my previous earnings).