Responsibilities of OVSs

Re: Responsibilities of OVSs

Bob Russell — Sat, 30 Oct 2010 11:43:54 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Bob My VT arrived today

Are you surprised that "the industry does not support the concept of CCTV " ????????????

I'm NOT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wynne

[/quote]

Not surprised. I accept there are technical difficulties with CCTV but if they can operate 24/7 in the harshest environments I cannot see that someone doing a clean down should make them useless!

Industry never quite seems to get the message - welfare does not need to cost extra!!!

Re: Responsibilities of OVSs

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 30 Oct 2010 10:24:56 GMT

Since it's the duty of the OV to monitor compliance, and take action whenever there are breaches, I think it's a cop-out to say that he/she is not responsible

Someone managed to get under-cover film, which if official would certainly have been of sufficient quality to be presented in evidence in a criminal court

Wynne

Re: Responsibilities of OVSs

Jill Nute — Thu, 28 Oct 2010 22:42:08 GMT

Hi Hannah, legally WASK ( Welfare of Animals at Slaughter & Killing) lays down the responsibilities for welfare very clearly,.The OV does not own the animals or the premises on which they are held, is not their "keeper", & is not responsible for their care/feed/water/shelter etc. The duty of the OV is monitoring the compliance of the plant operator/operatives with the welfare legislation, as well as reporting back to Defra or Trading Standards any matter that may require investigations involving the source of the animal or the transporter. The OV is not "responsible" for the transgressions of others, but could be held accountable IF he/she knew about a problem & did not take appropriate action. CCTV has practical problems, white meat shackling areas and some pig slaughter lines have very reduced light levels & a high level of dust/particle/spray matter, there is also the problem of splash/misting/steam cleaning interfering with equipment. I have worked in plants with a very highly sophisticated level of CCTV surveillance, which was a commercial enterprise as well, (I could even go into the security office& see shoppers in Gatwick airport!) but even with their level of equipment once the first wash down happened about 9.30 any slaughter hall pictures were rubbish.

Re: Responsibilities of OVSs

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 28 Oct 2010 18:41:15 GMT

Bob My VT arrived today

Are you surprised that "the industry does not support the concept of CCTV " ????????????

I'm NOT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wynne

Re: Responsibilities of OVSs

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 28 Oct 2010 18:30:29 GMT

PS Jill I can't understand how the primary responsibility for welfare lies with the plant operators, when monitoring welfare is one of the legal duties of OVs

Wynne

Re: Responsibilities of OVSs

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 28 Oct 2010 11:27:10 GMT

I agree Bob , the public do assume that welfare is far more closely monitored. Jill's account of how little supervision actually takes place is horrifying-slaughtering taking place with no veterinary surgeon on the premisis,and veterinary surgeon expected to multi-task in seperate areas. Meanwhile Joe Public is conned that veterinary supervision actually means that

It would be nice if the contractors all submitted teners based on 2 veterinarians present in the plant at all times-one purely monitoring welfare,and the other everything else-wishful thinking,especially as if they all did,there would probably be accusations of ill-legal price-fixing-never mind the fact that if rumours of inadequate length of sheep stunning are true,the slaughter-house operators are themselves breaking the law !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jill's other comments on contractors not needing to be veterinarians is also worrying-like lay people being allowed to own practices, and increasing lay representation on RCVS Council-it's all diluting our influence as a profession. Jill-your comment on TB testing (while digressing from the theme of this thread ) is also worrying. The meat-hygiene contractors may also move into testing,and not needing to fund the overheads of a traditional practice, could well undercut private practices. Loss of TB work could very well be the final nail in the coffin for many practices in remote areas-and will cause an immense welfare problem

Wynne

Re: Responsibilities of OVSs

Bob Russell — Thu, 28 Oct 2010 10:02:28 GMT

Page 4 of Vet Times good article on CCTV in abattoirs. I cannot see how a well run abattoir can possibly complain about CCTV in key welfare areas.

It is quite understandable for a degree of security to be incorporated to make sure footage is kept confidential except where legal issues arise. Film from abattoirs is never likely to be that pleasant viewing.

I do not understand the reluctance by the VPHA to endorse this wholeheartedly. They do not consider CCTV the only way of ensuring compliance with welfare legislation. May I suggest one of their members stands near the slaughter-man all day for a week to see if CCTV is necessary.

It is amazing how much better people behave (when sober!) when big brother is watching.

Bring on the legislation to make CCTV compulsory - the general public probably assume welfare is monitored to a much higher standard than it often is already.

Re: Responsibilities of OVSs

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 25 Oct 2010 10:11:46 GMT

Thanks Jill

Wynne

Re: Responsibilities of OVSs

Jill Nute — Sat, 23 Oct 2010 20:33:08 GMT

I have now had a chance to see the video, assuming it is shot in a UK plant/s there are very clear breaches of the WASK legislation. The OV's (or OVS for those traditionalists among us), responsibility, action to take, who to consult if necessary etc , is clearly spelled out in Operations Manuals & training, & the changes in the FSA/MHS in the last year or two have ensured that every OV has a Lead Veterinarian to consult/advise as necessary. BUT in many plants especially the smaller family run ones, the OV may only be present for an hour or two a week, this will have to cover antemortem inspection as well as some supervision of slaughter, and hygiene, as well as by products & other matters. In larger plants there will be more cover, but even so it is impossible for the OV to see every animal being slaughtered. CCTV has some practical difficulties in plants, so is not the whole answer. I have been in many plants where slaughtermen take great pride in their work & would be appalled at the sequences shown, I have also had to deal with prosecutions in small family plants where for instance the dog & owner regarded the dog hanging on to pigs ears as acceptable. The legislation is clear, OVs are trained to do the task, I believe support mechanisms for OVs are better than they were, if individual veterinary surgeons are not acting professionally then there is reason to complain to RCVS, BUT the primary responsibility for welfare at slaughter has to belong to the plant operator & their employees. I would endorse Bob & Vikki's comments. There is a tender process for the whole of GB for this work, contractors are awarded clusters, which are broadly county based, & may involve 2 or more counties. There are less than a dozen contractors nationwide. Some OVs/Lead Vs are FSA employees, but the majority are employed by the contractors. The contractors do not have to be veterinary surgeons, which is an interesting thought when considering the future of TB testing.

Re: Responsibilities of OVSs

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 20 Oct 2010 09:55:47 GMT

Andre I'm absolutely appaled at your story.I know a lot of people think thatI'm too concerned about strictly observing the law, but I think everyone would agree that this slaughter-man's actions were well outside the law-and he should be behind bars for a VERY long time.However, unless you get the other slaughter-men to back you up (wishfull thinking ) the CPS won't touch it. That's where Pete's CCTV (and sound recording ) would be so usefull-evidence of wrong-doing admissable in Court

Your employers should however have backed you up, and told the plant operators, in words of one syllable exactly what the relationship between regulator (VS ) and regulated (meat plant ) was. The only explanation I can think of for their spinelessness is a fear of loosing a lucrative contract-therefore ther's no point in having a VS there at all, if he/she is forced by lack of support to be a toothless tiger. Bob showed what can be done when the veterinary surgeons are all "on side " I'm a bit vague here-are OVs appointed by the MHS, or do slaughter-house owners have a say-if the latter, then there's an obvious conflict of interest

Wynne

Re: Responsibilities of OVSs

Andre Escudeiro-Vieites — Sat, 16 Oct 2010 16:50:41 GMT

[quote user="Vikki Halliday"]It is the personality that makes the person, not the employer.[/quote]

Let me say that an OVS is of course a person, but as long as I am concerned is first of all an employee, and part of an or an organization. If I was talking about persons I would use a names and a surnames, not a job title. He/she is an employee and a figure of authority (well, it should be), and that authority is given by Law. He/she is an "enforcing officer", and, in my humble opinion, it is more likely that an enforcement officer does the job properly when his/her employment status and conditions don't depend in any way on a contract with the people or orgainzation to be "policed", or enforced upon.

[quote user="Bob Russell"] If you do not have the support of your bosses and MHS management you have to decide whether it is possible to do your job as an OVS.[/quote]

Two different things: First, the welfare of the OVS is important as it is for any other employee. We all have seen that threatening and abuse has been campained against in the NHS.That sort of CERO tolerance should be in the core of MHS/FSA policy. Second, the job MUST be done by someone, so the means must be provided for the OVS to do the job and that means the system may need to change, not the person doing the individual task. Otherwise we can hire "Bruce-Willis-OVSs" to do the job in the difficult abbatoirs

I am very proud that the couple of years I spent working as an OVS I improved both the animal welfare and the food safety at the places where I worked. Sometimes I had to endure very stressfull situations and I do think that the system need revising. I haven't done any OVS work for over 5 years , so maybe thigs are wonderfull now

PS: I have to say I also met very nice and caring people in the Meat Industry

Re: Responsibilities of OVSs

Bob Russell — Sat, 16 Oct 2010 11:29:33 GMT

Hopefully nothing is too political for this forum (within reason!). If you do not have the support of your bosses and MHS management you have to decide whether it is possible to do your job as an OVS.

I was involved in white meat OVS work before and around the time the MHS was created and initially found a lot of support from them. It was, however quite evident within a few years that political pressure not to rock the boat was being put on the MHS and the support started to become weaker and more along the lines of you are the OVS - make the decision and take the responsibility.

Welfare is, however one of the situations where there can be no compromise.

Physical threats should be reported to bosses, MHS and the Police. You are being threatened, not the MHS or your boss!!

Not an easy job, it takes a certain type of person to do the job well. Commercial pressures to conform should not be a factor but I have to plead ignorance to red meat OVS work and it has been many years since I did OVS work.

This forum seems a good place for vets to discuss options and problems, largely away from the public gaze. I suspect that a number of OVS feel quite isolated, a bit like a one-man veterinary practice. Posting can be anonymous where necessary!

Re: Responsibilities of OVSs

Vikki Halliday LLB — Sat, 16 Oct 2010 10:56:12 GMT

[quote user="Andre Escudeiro-Vieites"]

I don't know if this is too political for this forum, but I do think that every vet doing OVS work should be a Civil Servant employed by the state. In this way most of the problems that I encountered working as an OVS wouldn't tend to happen. Someone said it is a policing job, and and do thing that it really is, and therefore needs propper training, specialization, and authority and no dependance on a single placement(e.g. a single abbatoir)

[/quote]

Why do you think that being a Civil servant makes doing the job any easier? I can assure you as an ex Civil servant, as well as an ex OVS, being permanently employed by HM government makes no difference to your ability to carry out a very difficult and stressful job, in the face of soetimes quite agressive opposition.

It is the personality that makes the person, not the employer.

Re: Responsibilities of OVSs

Andre Escudeiro-Vieites — Fri, 15 Oct 2010 23:00:03 GMT

The people who had to really do the job seem to give the more SENSIBLE arguments about how to operate in the difficult environment of a slaughterhourse.

I was one of those foreing vets once trying to do a propper job, with little support from the propper English vet bosses, even when I had been threatened to have my throat stuck like the sheep we were talking about (knife in the hand of someone that knew how to use a knife). I later learnt that the same person had threaten a POVS with a shotgun before.

Obviously a difficult job to do, day after day.

If higher ranks in the MHS or even my boss weren't interested in taking this matters further, what was a poor young foreing vet (who was offered in his home country an interesting happy year abroad in a highly respected profesional position) going to do?.

What I did was I left this horrible unrewarding job which is fundamentally flawed because of the lack of proper authority and training, and I don't mean training in the Regulations, but training in conflict resolution(...) and authority in the sense that the OVS should do his/her job, that is mainly preserving Public Health and mimising unnecessary animal suffering, with simple actions that don't involve exposing him/herself to abuse, backed if necessary by senior MHS staff.

That applies for extreme measures, but in everyday work, is all just an art of influencing people to do things in a certain way.

I don't think that policing shoud be done by private contractors, do you?

Re: Responsibilities of OVSs

Malcolm Ness — Fri, 15 Oct 2010 12:53:20 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]These experiences have lead me to hypothesize that non stun slaughter, provided it is carried out in a calm controled, quiet and respectful AND COMPETANT fashion may not be as distressing a process as imagined and certainly less so than the video above.[/quote]

I agree completely. We have a small flock of sheep and now and again a lamb ends up in the freezer, not via a lengthy road journey and an approved abbatoir but rather following the tender ministrations of a local retired butcher and his very sharp knife.

Our son aged about 5 years at the time saw a TV programme with footage of a sheep line in an abbatoir - presumably a "good" one as the filming appeared overt. "That's horrible", he said. "Why don't they just get Brian [the butcher] to show them how do it properly?"

Re: Responsibilities of OVSs

Bob Russell — Fri, 15 Oct 2010 10:51:59 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Bob So you wear your pants out of sight

Wynne

[/quote]Except when I turn into Superman!!!! Me in Lycra - not a pleasant thought!!!!

Re: Responsibilities of OVSs

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 15 Oct 2010 10:19:33 GMT

Bob So you wear your pants out of sight

Wynne

Re: Responsibilities of OVSs

Bob Russell — Fri, 15 Oct 2010 10:09:54 GMT

Sorry I will continue to use the out of date title OVS - I am not American and cannot abide the term veterinarian!!!!

Re: Responsibilities of OVSs

Bob Russell — Fri, 15 Oct 2010 10:07:37 GMT

One of the problems faced with an OVS in a slaughterhouse is that it gets progressively more difficult to remember you are there as a policeman and not a team member.It is an isolating job and challenging to do well.

It is all well and good to try to cooperate with management but you are never there to be part of that management. It is often a difficult role and when I was involved there was a general move to employ younger, inexperienced and often foreign OVS's. I have no experience of the state of play now.

We employed a number of these young vets and with a lot of support from us older and more bloody minded vets they did a very good job.

How much support is there now for an OVS?

A colleague was involved (pre MHS days) in the closure of a small local slaughterhouse - a lot of help was offered but the standards could not be brought up to modern levels so it closed.

Being an OVS is a tough job and you have to be tough and thick skinned to do it well. I have not viewed the footage but remember a few disasters happening right in front of the vet. It happens - our duty is to ensure it is rare and lessons get learned.

Re: Responsibilities of OVSs

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 15 Oct 2010 09:48:58 GMT

PS Bob I agree with your comment on the standard of slaughter-men, and Vikki's on small family-run slaughter-houses-the decrease in which has certainly not improved animal welfare

Wynne

Re: Responsibilities of OVSs

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 15 Oct 2010 09:44:38 GMT

Bob Thanks

Micheal Yes I've had an euthanasia go wrong-usually a house call when I've been unable totake a nurse !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!-horrendous.My "rumours " are actually the result of conversations with veterinary surgeons who have done meat inspection, I think sheep slaughter, because of the time taken to achieve a proper stun, and the pressure to maintain throughput is especially problematical I eat meat, but I won't eat lamb for this reason-a bit hypocritical as I wear wool

Trying to take managemaent and slaughter-men with you to gradually improve welfare, shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the role the OV is SUPPOSED to play. That is an approach suitable to a member of the management team, but the OV is NOT a team member. He/she is a regulator, is there in a policeman's role, is entrusted by the public to enforce the law on welfare

Wynne

Re: Responsibilities of OVSs

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 14 Oct 2010 17:26:40 GMT

Wynne, this is clearly something you feel very strongly about and for good reason. The problem I have is the evidence you are basing your views on seemingly a very short video and what you 'have been told'. How would you feel if someone based their whole view of the Veterinary Profession on the recent Panorama programme and hearsay? They may find that a few bad eggs tainted the majority that are good or excellent.

I freely have not spent much time in abattoirs but the time I spent I actually enjoyed. I found the staff very good at what they did and saw not a single welfare compromise. As a scientist I found the whole process interesting and great anatomy revision!

The other issue we have here is language! We have a small abattoir near us and they have a run of vets - all of them from Eastern Europe with dodgy English. Welfare has to be taken in context and what is acceptable in Poland might not be acceptable in England. I'm not condoning the things in the video, because I have watched it, but they could be 2 minutes out of a total of many hundreds of hours.

I work with cows daily and do use plastic or wooden sticks, and sometimes it is necessary to use them - people welfare takes president over potentially dangerous animals!

Wynne - can you honestly say you've never had a euthanasia go wrong - because that could be the tiny exception we are seeing?

Re: Responsibilities of OVSs

Bob Russell — Thu, 14 Oct 2010 16:55:35 GMT

There are lots of humans condemned to rather unpleasant ends through lack of 'euthanasia' options - discuss!!!!!!!!!!!

The key to welfare at slaughter is the standard of the slaughter-man. I would prefer to avoid non-stun slaughter meat on principle but consider it better than poor stun slaughter.

It is the OVS responsibility to ensure that handling pre-slaughter and the slaughter process itself is as humane as it can be. We meat eaters count on and expect it!!

Re: Responsibilities of OVSs

Mark Holmes — Thu, 14 Oct 2010 16:24:51 GMT

I appreciate that this post will probably be torn apart, and I assure you that I do not condone cruelty in any form so can people consider what I am about to post before hunting me down. I am also playing devil's advocate to some extent.

Ritual slaughter might not be that bad.

I say this from this position.

1) I suffer frequently from positional hypotention and have an a number of occasions passed out after standing up quickly. The experience is actually not unpleasant.

2) I have suffered some quite significant and deep cuts with a sharp blade (not to the carotid arteries admitedly) and have not noticed them until I have found the blood. I almost lost a finger in the kitchen a few years ago. With a sharp edge they are painless.

These experiences have lead me to hypothesize that non stun slaughter, provided it is carried out in a calm controled, quiet and respectful AND COMPETANT fashion may not be as distressing a process as imagined and certainly less so than the video above.

My experience having witness slaughter by carotid transection in Africa would support this.

Before posting I have done some research online and watched some footage. There would appear to be some time to death in some of that footage but I wonder for how much of that the animal was concious. It looks fairly gruesome but that is irrelevant to the argument (but not to politics)

Just some thoughts... off you go!

Re: Responsibilities of OVSs

Bob Russell — Thu, 14 Oct 2010 16:10:00 GMT

The more observant and pro-active OVS will keep the management under more pressure to comply more of the time. A less involved OVS will often lead to a more lax regimen.

There is no room for complacency ever with welfare - the general public expects it and it is our most important role in a slaughterhouse. Hygiene compliance is IMHO secondary to that role and welfare should never be compromised.

Many years ago I was heavily involved in dealing with problems with spent hen welfare at slaughter. Initially the fracture levels were so high that within the first week I had involved senior MHS staff (very new to the job then) and to my surprise the senior management in the plant did listen even if the more junior management were less worried.

The problem was so serious that I made it clear to all that I would resign my position (within the first week!!!) if the situation did not improve as I was not willing to accept this level of welfare issue.

This caused such a stir that an immediate plan of action was agreed and realistic but reasonable limits were agreed. The goal posts did get moved for the better over the next few years and nutrition standards towards the end of lay were improved to strengthen bones thus reducing the risk of fracture.

Although not the most fun part of my working life it is one of the things I am most proud of having achieved!!! Sad really.

An OVS cannot compromise welfare, it is damaging to everyone.